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fatbob

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I don't think it's the passes doing it. It's the corporations and owners. He scarcely mentions the passes specifically. Lazy article not least in the assumption that you have to live in a mountain town to be a core skier. I bet I get in more ski hours than quite a few mountain town residents.

FWIW I agree about the gentrification point but then I don't need 5* accomodation or chi chi bistros or ersatz alpine lodges or ice rinks. But then I don't spend the $ that vistors who like that shizzle do.
 

Big J

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https://www.outsideonline.com/2389964/ski-pass-epic-ikon

Why I might use different examples than the article and I am guilty of using the mega passes, I do worry about what they are doing to the industry.
Vail bought my home resort Stevens Pass Resort in Washington State. My wife and I had the weekday passes for the last 5 years at $300 each or less. It is now gone wth the $500 plus Local Pass as the replacement. It is no longer weekday only. Many people have no intention of ever going to another Epic resort and are now blessed with a huge price increase with no weekday only pass available. Lucky for us I qualify for the Military Veterans passes for both of us. They increased it by $29 this year. If they mess with the Military Veterans pass too much I am not sure what we will do. The beginner learn in three program is now gone as well. I am waiting to see what they will do next.
 

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RJS

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There are some legitimate reasons to be skeptical of multi-resort passes and their effects on the ski industry. That said, this article is incredibly lazy, and has a bunch of holes in it.

In the wake of Vail’s 2017 acquisition of Stowe, in Vermont, real estate prices, which weren’t cheap before, rose notably, according to Gayle Oberg of the locally based Little River Realty. “There’s been a significant difference. Prices are as high as we’ve seen,” says Oberg, who originally moved to Stowe to ski bum in 1973.

Where's the evidence that Vail's purchase of Stowe caused the real estate prices to increase? Logically, are people really buying homes or second-homes at Stowe because all of a sudden it went from being owned by AIG to being owned by Vail? Let's take a look at the chart below which plots Zillow's "home value index" for Stowe alongside Burlington, VT and Boston, MA. The vertical line is for February, 2017, when Vail announced that they were acquiring Stowe.


Home prices in Stowe have certainly risen since February, 2017, but so have prices in the nearby city of Burlington, and also in New England's biggest city, Boston. During the timeframe of February, 2017 to the present, the economy and the stock market have been doing incredibly, and prices have risen all over New England. In short, I would like to see additional evidence that Vail's purchase of Stowe is causing the price increases.

Big Sky, Montana, was recently added to the Ikon Pass network, and already locals are feeling the housing squeeze. “All the affordable long-term rentals we had before this year are now off the market and seem to be on VRBO,” said a longtime local and resort employee, who requested anonymity for fear of losing their job. “It’s priced out all the people that support this town. I know of resort employees living in tents in the forest. People here are really pissed off.”

As a matter of public policy, why don't ski towns consider regulating rental properties? The city that I live in, Cambridge, MA, is extremely touristy, and we passed laws regulating short-term rentals as a ton of property in Cambridge was showing up platforms like Airbnb.

More importantly, Big Sky has been and will be investing over a hundred millions dollars in a huge plan called Big Sky 2025. This plan has been available at least since August 2016, long before Big Sky went on the IKON Pass. The way that they pay for this plan is with increased visitation and/or higher prices! Whether it was being on the IKON Pass or spending a huge amount on marketing, Big Sky was going to try and attract a lot of new customers one way or the other. The writing was on the wall.

For about seven years, residents of Squaw Valley, California—core skiers if there ever were any—have worked to oppose a huge development proposal at the base of Squaw by KSL Capital, a founding partner of Alterra. They fear thousands of more tourists, heavier traffic, high-rise hotels, a lower quality of life, and significant environmental impacts.

Without knowing details of KSL's development plan, I wonder if local residents realize that opposing this development actually goes against many of their goals? If the face of growing demand, increasing supply is really the only way to bring down or stabilize prices. Wouldn't you rather have out-of-town guests clustered in a few high-rise hotels near the base of Squaw than many of them staying in nearby towns, causing owners to list more and more property on VBRO/Airbnb? And these out-of-towners will be contributing to traffic by driving to/from their accommodations instead of being able to do ski-in/ski-out? One lesson I've learned from my interest in urban planning is that the best thing to do with a whole bunch of folks with money is to cluster them all into one place, leaving the rest of the space for everyone else. In cities, that means letting the rich live in a cluster of high-rises, leaving the triple deckers surrounding neighborhoods for the less well-off. The same thing applies to ski towns. If you don't accommodate increased demand with increased supply, prices go up. IKON might be driving some of this demand, but a lot of it is also coming from population growth in the West and great snow.

“The U.S. ski industry is facing… increasing prices, paid by a declining number of customers,” analysts wrote in the 2018 International Report on Snow and Mountain Tourism. “This tends to make ski[ing] less affordable… especially for the beginners, who usually purchase daily passes…. The business model of the large U.S. resorts [can be summarized as trying to get] always more money from always less customers.”

I agree with the premise that increased day ticket costs makes it harder for beginners to get into the sport.

The business model of trying to get more money from fewer customers would actually make a lot of locals that are complaining about the IKON Pass happy though, right? You can't complain about both costs and crowding. One is very much a function of the other.

Vail reportedly tried involuntarily cramming 100 more beds into its Keystone employee housing. The plan was to add two more residents per select two- and three-bedroom units, increasing the occupancy of those to four- and five-person units, respectively, creating a college-dorm-like situation.

I agree that this is shitty thing for Vail to do. Ski resorts can and should do more to house employees. But if ski towns, which heavily restrict supply, make an effort to increase supply to meet demand, there wouldn't be as much of a need for subsidized housing. I know that land is scarce in ski towns, but land is also scarce in big cities. We've basically solved this issue: building up. You might not like the idea of a seven story hulking apartment building being built in a quaint ski town, but that's how to house a lot of people in a small space.

Sorry about the long rant. Again, this is a very real issue, but the article was not very well written. Instead of hand waving and anecdotes, I want to see some real analysis done on the effects that multi-resort passes have on skiing.
 

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Seems to me the article not so much about killing skiing as it is about hurting locals and day trippers affordability. In one sense this is the age old model that money goes to money. Sort of as I have mentioned in the other thread about skiing growing (or not),...skiing (except for the locals) never really was a poor mans recreation. Especially at the destination resorts. And how often has big corporate ever truly cared about the little man.

But as written in the article about housing market increases, isn't that in a way a good thing? And something that will bring about other good things? Who is really buying these multi mega passes outside of those who live near enough multiple resorts ? I mean who could really use them except for those with higher financial capability to often travel and who can afford both the resources of time and money to visit different resorts on the same season. And many those wealthier vacationer people/families can also afford to pay the increased ownerships and rentals and vacancies. The increased size and status of the vacationing "money crowd" also brings one good thing with it to the town. It brings money. Hence the real-estate jump. But also can bring opportunity for more businesses and or jumps in sales to existing businesses. That all generates jobs, income, and tax revenue.

Im not advocating the corporate model. In fact I can go on and on for pages about the ridicules excess greed and insensitivity and irresponsibility towards the commons and the greater good that decades ago became the big corp model. In many ways is really a sad selfish crime. Things get worse and worse for the little man as the shrinking middle class gets priced out of many things such what the article imo is basically suggesting. But in this specific case couldn't it sometimes be a good thing that given town/s may grow in size and revenue flow? Hotels, restaurants, shops, etc..could possibly now not only grow but be supported with a higher revenue stream. And in turn that may end up a good thing for the locals and the town itself.

I understand it could also end up a ctach-22 as many locals it doesn't benefit and have to sit back and watch the high end crowd enjoy the resort while they themselves cant. So there is probably some good and bad about this.
 

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I want to see some real analysis done on the effects that multi-resort passes have on skiing.
I think it will be a few seasons before that happens..unfortately, those seasons will need to include low snow years...which none of us want.
 
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Wasatchman

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Read to the bottom of the page, they have this article: The Giant Resorts You Hate Are Saving Skiing. I guess when you argue both sides of the story, you are never wrong.
Nothing wrong with presenting two sides of the story and letting the reader decide which is the more compelling argument. Two different writers, two different opinions.

In an age of incessant media bias, it's refreshing for me to see a publication present both sides.
 

Slim

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This whole discussion of conglomerate passes seems to be missing some key data. I assume Alters and Vail know this information, but these, and other magazine articles don't mention this info:

  1. The number of skiers is fairly stagnant, correct?
  2. What about the number of skier days? In other words, are the same people skiing more days?
  3. If not, it means that some(smaller/lesss good) resorts are less busy, while the popular ones get busier.
  4. This last trend has been going on for 40 years. In the 50’s, Chicagoans would take the train or drive many hours to ski 200 feet vertical in northern Wisconsin. Now they buy a $120 airline ticket to Colorado.
 

Philpug

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This whole discussion of conglomerate passes seems to be missing some key data. I assume Alters and Vail know this information, but these, and other magazine articles don't mention this info:

  1. The number of skiers is fairly stagnant, correct?
  2. What about the number of skier days? In other words, are the same people skiing more days?
  3. If not, it means that some(smaller/lesss good) resorts are less busy, while the popular ones get busier.
  4. This last trend has been going on for 40 years. In the 50’s, Chicagoans would take the train or drive many hours to ski 200 feet vertical in northern Wisconsin. Now they buy a $120 airline ticket to Colorado.
One thing they do know...if skiers are at home, they aren't making any money on them. The pass gets them in the door..that is when they start making the money, lodging, food and other purchases.

I do see the day pass price being the punishment for not buying a pass..IMHO the price is too steep in most cases and it is alienating the "average" consumer.
 

Slim

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One thing they do know...if skiers are at home, they aren't making any money on them. The pass gets them in the door..that is when they start making the money, lodging, food and other purchases.

I do see the day pass price being the punishment for not buying a pass..IMHO the price is too steep in most cases and it is alienating the "average" consumer.
Or conversely, if skiers are at home with a pass, they ARE making money on them, with no effort! Even better!

This is the business model that Mt Bohemia in MI has: they sell pre season saleseason pass for $100, which is less than two day passes, but they know, that many of those skiers won’t show up a single time(yep, I bought it and not used it!)
 

RuleMiHa

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It seems like everyone forgets that it all wasn't perfect before mega passes. All I think we can say is that it CHANGES skiing.
 

Andy Mink

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Or conversely, if skiers are at home with a pass, they ARE making money on them, with no effort! Even better!
They still have to spin the lifts, groom, patrol, open the lodge, perform routine maintenance, and all the other things that go with operations whether it be 100 or 1000 people on the hill. If there's 1000 they stand a better chance at selling food, booze, and whatever else the life may offer.
 

LKLA

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Or conversely, if skiers are at home with a pass, they ARE making money on them, with no effort! Even better!

This is the business model that Mt Bohemia in MI has: they sell pre season saleseason pass for $100, which is less than two day passes, but they know, that many of those skiers won’t show up a single time(yep, I bought it and not used it!)

If all Vail or Alterra did was to make money from selling passes they would close tomorrow. The last type of guest Vail or Alterra wants is someone who does not show up!
 

RuleMiHa

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If all Vail or Alterra did was to make money from selling passes they would close tomorrow. The last type of guest Vail or Alterra wants is someone who does not show up!
But not showing up and owning a pass is better than not showing up and not owning a thing. It's all relative.
 

LKLA

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But not showing up and owning a pass is better than not showing up and not owning a thing. It's all relative.

OK!

But that obvious fact was not the point. Getting $1 for something that is worth $10 is better than getting $0. True dat.

The point is that simply selling passes is not how Vail or Alterra will keep the lights on. It is not how they make money. It is not what they are aiming for. Targeting guests who buy passes and never show-up (spend more) is not the guest profile they are going after.
 

Goose

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One thing they do know...if skiers are at home, they aren't making any money on them. The pass gets them in the door..that is when they start making the money, lodging, food and other purchases.

I do see the day pass price being the punishment for not buying a pass..IMHO the price is too steep in most cases and it is alienating the "average" consumer.

They don't seem to care about the average. Its making what was never really a poor mans recreation to now become even more exclusive to the wealthier only. Im not sure in some cases where or how they come up with the cost of the day ticket vs the season pass. That cost ratio doesn't really make sense imo. The high priced daily doesn't seem to fit vs the season pass cost. In one sense they may be figuring people will opt for the season due to the high priced daily but they are not perhaps realizing the average family/person cant afford the bigger nut. And so it becomes a price gouge much like going to an event. And like an event it then becomes something the average person cant afford to do but only minimally.

Its become like Disney world where as its the one time visit/vaca and anything outside of that is just not practical nor doable. But unlike Disney, skiing is something people who make the efforts want to be able to participate on some sort of repeat basis.

And where does the average income beginner family fit in and then become avid participants for years to come? I mean just how much (on top of all the daunting task efforts involved) for that first time family does it need to cost before they can no longer consider it worthy at all? Skiing has a time consuming learning curve that requires multiple vsists before a family finds it all worhy and finds it something they want to hook on to. . There needs to be a happy medium or skiing will end up in only the hands of the very wealthy. But just perhaps that's what they want.
 
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Andy Mink

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I believe the main reason Alterra/Vail et al like passes is they get the money up front, months out from the season. They win whether the season is great or crappy. If they relied on day passes and it's a low tide year with lots of rain, very few people will come but they still have to run the area. With passes, they have to run the area but they've already money in the bank to cover it. The day tickets at an outrageous price are gravy. Luckily there are other options to the day ticket at most places (family packs, 2 or 4 day passes, ticket/rental/lesson bundles, etc.). That still doesn't make it easy for a beginner or family but it does make it more probable they'll come.

I do believe these areas really need to reevaluate their day prices. If I'm a newby I certainly will choke at the thought of paying well over $100 for a ticket plus rentals and all the other stuff to try something I may not like. That's not a way to get new blood into the pool to replace those who are leaving the sport.
 

Goose

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well,, how about 150, 180, 200 pp for the day? I mean this is sort of the whole point. In this model the future of skiing is largely only going to come from the wealthy.

But I also get that the wealthy consumers will bring in money and business to a town. Hence what the topic (for better or worse) originated about.

Some of this is a ctach-22. Damned if you do damned if you don't. There are casualties either way.
 

LKLA

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I believe the main reason Alterra/Vail et al like passes is they get the money up front, months out from the season. They win whether the season is great or crappy. If they relied on day passes and it's a low tide year with lots of rain, very few people will come but they still have to run the area. With passes, they have to run the area but they've already money in the bank to cover it. The day tickets at an outrageous price are gravy. Luckily there are other options to the day ticket at most places (family packs, 2 or 4 day passes, ticket/rental/lesson bundles, etc.). That still doesn't make it easy for a beginner or family but it does make it more probable they'll come.

I do believe these areas really need to reevaluate their day prices. If I'm a newby I certainly will choke at the thought of paying well over $100 for a ticket plus rentals and all the other stuff to try something I may not like. That's not a way to get new blood into the pool to replace those who are leaving the sport.

Liftopia Adult Lift Ticket Prices:

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Mt. Abram Learn to Ski Package -- $69
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Jay Peak 2 Day + Rental -- $190
Bromley 3 Day -- $131
Bolton Valley 3 Day + Rental -- $178
Magic Mountain + Tubing -- $54
Waterville Valley -- $39
Jiminy Peak -- $68
Dartmouth Skiway -- $15
Black Mountain (NH) -- $25
Cranmore Mountain -- $49
Attitash -- $30
Wildcat -- $30
Eagle Point -- $59
Nordic Valley 2 Day -- $44
Diamon Peak -- $59
Mt. Ashland 1 Day + Rental -- $46
Anthony Lakes 2 Day -- $30
 

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