Are retraction turns in powder hard to do?

[Rod9301]

But I hope nobody is thinking of dolphin turns in powder

 

[vindibona1]

If I were you, I'd go to Aspen and have these guys show you how to ski powder.

Your post brought back memories Tricia... I had been skiing about a year, had never seen a real mountain before and went to Aspen for my first real mountain ski experience. I had the same question; "How do you ski this stuff????" I took a private lesson and was did pretty well after... until I encountered crud .

 

[SSSdave]

My take on this is basically, as a beginning powder skier the natural reflex is to try and " jump" to get the skis out of the powder and change their direction. Unless we are talking about shallow enough powder with a solid base to push against, this can be quite exhausting. The more advanced powder skier in much deeper snow has probably discovered that retraction, which requires no solid base to push against, is much more efficient. I would imagine that good core strength is a big help with this!

It is true that the majority of fresh powder skiers whether due to fresh snow quality, technique, or ski flex, cannot ski far without using too much energy to continue.

It is also true there are a minority of accomplished powder skiers, like this person, that can bounce on the rebounding reverse camber of a purposely designed soft flexing powder ski into the conforming compressing shape of the snow such that without using much effort beyond efficiently using the complementary downward energy in gravity plus momentum, that they can do so such that they can ski down long distances efficiently without expending a level of effort that they would need to stop. Instead one may experience a wonderful visceral estactic harmonious oscillating rebounding rhythm that is arguably the most awesome possible off fresh snow softness.

That noted, it is also true that skilled powder skiers cannot do so in all qualities of fresh snow particularly as it becomes wetter, heavier, surface crusted or caked. Nor can that skier do so on just any wide ski, as such have a range of different flex types for limited ranges of purpose.

Thus an issue with the OP's link, is that it is a somewhat over generalization, valid maybe for some types of firmer powder skis while not so on all fresh snow tools.

 

[jimtransition]

But I hope nobody is thinking of dolphin turns in powder

Why? Most turns I make in powder involve a similar fore/aft pattern to a dolphin turn.

 

[karlo]

See, I don't like his turns, he definitely has an up move.

Correct me if I am wrong. First, I think his intent is teaching an upper intermediate to middle-advanced skier. Then, second, I think his target audience doesn’t begin edging early in the turn. Then, third, I think because of 2, a retraction turn is not practical. The rise, rather than a retraction, allows the skis to drift into the fall line, at which point edging begins. That’s what he does in his demonstrations. I think a retraction turn requires that the skier be comfortable driving the upper body and COM down the hill early in the turn, and the skiers he is addressing aren’t ready for that.

 

[Rod9301]

Correct me if I am wrong. First, I think his intent is teaching an upper intermediate to middle-advanced skier. Then, second, I think his target audience doesn’t begin edging early in the turn. Then, third, I think because of 2, a retraction turn is not practical. The rise, rather than a retraction, allows the skis to drift into the fall line, at which point edging begins. That’s what he does in his demonstrations. I think a retraction turn requires that the skier be comfortable driving the upper body and COM down the hill early in the turn, and the skiers he is addressing aren’t ready for that.

I don't like teaching something that needs to be discarded later on.

 

[Rod9301]

Why? Most turns I make in powder involve a similar fore/aft pattern to a dolphin turn.

They take a lot of energy. All it's needed on powder is to pull the feet back and tip the skis. Maybe that's a dolphin turn.

 

[karlo]

What should make them more difficult to do in powder than turns done by an up motion?

So just puzzled by why Lorenz...describes these (retraction)turns (in powder) as 'rather difficult to perform',

SSSdave cut to the point.

efficiently using the complementary downward energy in gravity plus momentum

My take on it is that unless one is competent at allowing the upper body to continue moving downhill, a retraction will simply result in the skier in a sit position with COM way aft. Being aft is bad, really bad.

And what are the advantages (if any) of an up motion instead of a flexing turn in powder?

SSSDave also makes the point

it is also true that skilled powder skiers cannot do so in all qualities of fresh snow particularly as it becomes wetter, heavier, surface crusted or caked.

I see the purpose of the retraction is to unweight the skis so they can rise up, then we tip to turn. If they are stuck in cement or under crust, that won’t happen, unless one is skiing super aggressively and fast. Even then, there are limits to what the best skiers can do as conditions get worse. Soo... I think the advantage of an up motion is that, being patient, one can allow the skis to turn downhill on their own. Once pointed downhill, one can tip and engage edge to finish the turn, basically doing what a beginner parallel skier does.

...why Lorenz ... seemingly suggesting people start instead with a kind of up-unweighting in powder, something he doesn't suggest for piste skiing.

Is he suggesting that? If so, I see two possibilities. There are probably more. One is the skier does not yet know how to use retraction (maybe doesn’t even yet know how to project COM downhill at start of turn). In that case, it’s best to learn that on piste, in skier-appropriate terrain, rather than introduce another complexity. But, the skier’s objective, after an hour lesson, might be to, for example, join friends in powder. There would be insufficient time to teach retraction and also teach how to use it in powder.

Another possibility is that the skier is advanced enough to use retraction onpiste, but, being a first timer in powder, Lorenz may be saying that it’s best to go back to first fundamentals. On this second possibility, a first timer may not be going at sufficient speed and have sufficient momentum to use retraction.

Lorenz is a highly experienced instructor. I want to be a better instructor. I’d like very much to know what he meant to suggest and why.

 

[Henry]

They are harder for folks who have an ingrained up-move release built into their skiing.

Exactly. Everyone is usually taught extension turns in every ski lesson beyond wedging. The transition to retraction turns is difficult in any type of snow. The turn isn't difficult. The change is difficult. Totally different timing of the movements. Retract when you're used to extending. Extend when you're used to retracting.

 

[karlo]

Everyone is usually taught extension turns in every ski lesson beyond wedging.

I think it’s actually an extension of having taught standing on and pressuring the outside ski, whether or not it’s a wedge or parallel from the start.

 

[Steve]

Exactly. Everyone is usually taught extension turns in every ski lesson beyond wedging. The transition to retraction turns is difficult in any type of snow. The turn isn't difficult. The change is difficult. Totally different timing of the movements. Retract when you're used to extending. Extend when you're used to retracting.

I don't agree with this. It is not a shift in phase.

In an extension turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski while you extend the inside ski.

In a retraction turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski without extending the inside ski (at first) and possibly retracting it more, but then you do extend it as it becomes the outside ski.

So the main difference is the timing and action of the inside ski, which still ends up extended in both cases when it becomes the outside ski.

 

[karlo]

I don't agree with this. It is not a shift in phase.

In an extension turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski while you extend the inside ski.

In a retraction turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski without extending the inside ski (at first) and possibly retracting it more, but then you do extend it as it becomes the outside ski.

So the main difference is the timing and action of the inside ski, which still ends up extended in both cases when it becomes the outside ski.

That's a nice clarification

 

[Noodler]

I don't agree with this. It is not a shift in phase.

In an extension turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski while you extend the inside ski.

In a retraction turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski without extending the inside ski (at first) and possibly retracting it more, but then you do extend it as it becomes the outside ski.

So the main difference is the timing and action of the inside ski, which still ends up extended in both cases when it becomes the outside ski.

99% of the general skiing public extends both legs at transition. They use the up-unweighting to release the old ski edges and transition into the new turn.

Higher level skiers and racers do use the extension movement as you've described (thinking of Brignone especially), but for the rest of the world, it's far and few between.

 

[CalG]

I can't speak for others, But when I want to "get started" turning from a straight run in soft snow, I do the following.

First I get enough speed to plane on the yielding snow.
Second, I do some gentle bounces, DOWN weighting the skis and then feeling for the rebound. Still in a straight run.
Third, After confirming I am really floating, and not just pushing soft snow on top of a hard base, I ACCENTUATE the ski's rebound from the supporting snow and then Down unweight (retracting my feet towards my butt) to free the skis and enter into the first of many similar turns.
The turn it's self has a vertical element in the 3D snow. first a plunging down weight, then the rebounding skis along with my down unweighting additional efforts.
What goes UP, must come down, so the DOWN weighting follows as a natural result of the previous turn. The rebound too.

And then it is best described by SSSDave!

 

[Rod9301]

I can't speak for others, But when I want to "get started" turning from a straight run in soft snow, I do the following.

First I get enough speed to plane on the yielding snow.
Second, I do some gentle bounces, DOWN weighting the skis and then feeling for the rebound. Still in a straight run.
Third, After confirming I am really floating, and not just pushing soft snow on top of a hard base, I ACCENTUATE the ski's rebound from the supporting snow and then Down unweight (retracting my feet towards my butt) to free the skis and enter into the first of many similar turns.
The turn it's self has a vertical element in the 3D snow. first a plunging down weight, then the rebounding skis along with my down unweighting additional efforts.
What goes UP, must come down, so the DOWN weighting follows as a natural result of the previous turn. The rebound too.

And then it is best described by SSSDave!

I used to do the same, now I simply flex and tip. Just like on a groomer.

There is no need to free the skis to turn

 

[Skisailor]

I don't agree with this. It is not a shift in phase.

In an extension turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski while you extend the inside ski.

In a retraction turn you retract (shorten/flex) the outside ski without extending the inside ski (at first) and possibly retracting it more, but then you do extend it as it becomes the outside ski.

So the main difference is the timing and action of the inside ski, which still ends up extended in both cases when it becomes the outside ski.

I have to disagree @Steve. What you describe as an extension turn above, is actually a long leg/short leg release or initiation.

In an extension turn both legs extend to release. In a retraction turn, both legs flex to release. In a long leg/short leg release, one leg extends while the other retracts. It’s that simple. I think we sometimes get confused because the amount of extension or retraction of the two legs will differ in magnitude depending on the degree of slope. But it’s happening nonetheless. In retraction and extension turns the legs are doing the same thing (flexing or extending). In a long leg/short leg release they are doing different things.

 

[Steve]

@Skisailor and @Noodler how do you extend your outside leg if it's already extended, as it should be?

An ILE (Inside Leg Extension) turn involves the first and primary movement being the Inside Leg Extending, this is an Extension turn as I've always understood it. It kind of vaults the skier. In a retraction turn there is no vaulting.

Although there are situations where both legs are short, I don't see that as being the common definition of an extension turn, or if not it's a terminology thing.

ILE vs OLR is the way we discussed this for years on epic. Inside Leg Extension vs. Outside Leg Release.

 

[Bendu]

maybe the Coach meant that retraction turns are hard in powder for most people, and not for them?

 

[karlo]

In a long leg/short leg release, one leg extends while the other retracts.

It’s not “while” is it? Isn’t it sequential, one then the other? And, isn’t it an extreme, rare, boundary-layer case, that a flexed leg doesn’t extend one whit until transition?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I have to disagree @Steve. What you describe as an extension turn above, is actually a long leg/short leg release or initiation.

In an extension turn both legs extend to release. In a retraction turn, both legs flex to release. In a long leg/short leg release, one leg extends while the other retracts. It’s that simple. I think we sometimes get confused because the amount of extension or retraction of the two legs will differ in magnitude depending on the degree of slope. But it’s happening nonetheless. In retraction and extension turns the legs are doing the same thing (flexing or extending). In a long leg/short leg release they are doing different things.

@Skisailor, you are identifying three ways to initiate a turn. In my world turn initiations are identified a little differently, and I know of four different ones, not three. I agree with @Steve.

your #1. Extend/lengthen/straighten both legs at the same time. Skier will be tall between turns standing on two long legs.
I have taught beginner and novices who can't manage doing something different with each leg to use this initiation. Since both legs are lengthened to start a new turn, both legs need to shorten at the end of the old turn. So the skier goes short, then tall, between turns. I know this initiation as up-unweighting. People I associate with do not call it an extension initiation, extension turn or extension release. But I can see why one might.

your #2. Flex/shorten/bend both legs at the same time. Skier will be short between turns.
I know this one as a retraction turn, as do you. Since one leg is already short at the end of the old turn, and this initiation needs that leg to get even shorter, this ends up being a movement that lightens/lifts the skis off the snow. It is typically done quickly, and rebound is felt. This turn is sometimes called a cross-under turn, as the skis are lifted and moved under the body from one side to the other.

your #3. Flex one leg and extend the other simultaneously, together. Skier will be medium short between turns.
***In my world your long-leg/short-leg initiation gets divided into two different initiations. The difference between these two is in the timing, as @Steve posted upthread. So I have a #3 and #4. If they are blended, the result is your #3. But if performed as distinguishable initiations, the differences are significant, and they yield different ski-snow interactions. Thus the separation into two initiations is worth doing conceptually, and worth learning on the snow. Blending comes afterwards, and is a tactical choice.

3A. Lengthen the old inside/new outside leg first, bringing the body upward and across the skis. The old outside/new inside leg stays long while this is happening but does not extend/lengthen more, as you have happening in #1 above. The skier does get taller between turns, but does not get maximum lift so the initiation does not cause dramatic up-unweighting. The long new inside leg starts shortening after the new outside leg lengthens. How much delay in this flexing determines how tall the skier gets. This is known as an extension release/extension turn. On Epic is was known as ILE (old inside leg extension). I also know this as a cross-over initiation, because the body moves up and over the skis. This initiation is often taught to beginner wedge skiers: lengthen the new outside leg to start a wedge turn, then shorten the new inside leg once the skis point down the hill. The skier is taught to do something with only one leg at a time, the new outside leg, which starts the person learning to move each leg differently at transition.

3B. Shorten the old outside/new inside leg first, all by itself. This keeps the body low as it moves across the skis. The old inside/new outside leg stays short as the body crosses over the skis. That outside leg lengthens as the skis point downhill, and it gains maximum extension at the fall line. The delay in lengthening that leg keeps the skis firmly planted on the snow for the top of the turn, and there is no unweighting. This initiation speeds up the transition since the mass of the upper body does not need to be moved up and down. The body topples across the skis. In my world this is known as a flexion release/flexion turn. Back on Epic it was known as OLR (old outside leg relaxation).

**ILE and OLR are terms coined by Rick Schnellman, as pointed out by @Steve.