Are retraction turns in powder hard to do?

[J2R]

I was just reading some powder skiing advice from Paul Lorenz on his blog, https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/the-trick-to-skiing-pow-like-a-pro, and he says this, which I find intriguing: "As a skier becomes more proficient in powder, this up motion can be replaced by a “cross-under”, “down unweighted” or “absorption” style of transition. This type of transition between the turns is done by retracting or pulling the legs up under the body which reduces the load on the skis, making them lighter and easier to turn. This causes less jumping/up-down movement and subsequently less interruption to balance and makes for a smoother ride. It is however rather difficult to perform and should be used more by the advanced powder skier. "

Now, retraction turns (or whatever you want to call turns effected by flexing) are basically what I do. What should make them more difficult to do in powder than turns done by an up motion? Do others find this? And what are the advantages (if any) of an up motion instead of a flexing turn in powder?

 

[SpikeDog]

View media item 3638

Perhaps an upward motion such as this is what you are referring to, J2R? In this case, it's allowing me to make short turns on a flat powder run. If I made more traditional rotational turns (i.e. carved), I'd have made far less turns in the same distance.

 

[Tricia]

If I were you, I'd go to Aspen and have these guys show you how to ski powder.

 

[CalG]

If I were you, I'd go to Aspen and have these guys show you how to ski powder.

The lion's share of the turns demonstrated in that film clip are terrain unweighted.
Very reliable!

 

[Tricia]

The lion's share of the turns demonstrated in that film clip are terrain unweighted.
Very reliable!

 

[Rod9301]

In power most of my turns are flex to release, which you might call retraction.

If you tip a lot and pull your feet back a lot, you can make very short turns.

The up motion to get your feet out of the snow to turn is inefficient and slower.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Nope. Not hard.

 

[J2R]

So just puzzled by why Lorenz, an extremely competent skier (!) describes these turns as 'rather difficult to perform', seemingly suggesting people start instead with a kind of up-unweighting in powder, something he doesn't suggest for piste skiing.

 

[Ross Biff]

My take on this is basically, as a beginning powder skier the natural reflex is to try and " jump" to get the skis out of the powder and change their direction. Unless we are talking about shallow enough powder with a solid base to push against, this can be quite exhausting. The more advanced powder skier in much deeper snow has probably discovered that retraction, which requires no solid base to push against, is much more efficient. I would imagine that good core strength is a big help with this!

 

[tromano]

Pow is such a forgiving surface you can really play around with your mechanics and technique. Up-moves when used for popping off a windlip or bump in the pow is super fun way to ski. "Retraction turns" are smoother, faster and more controlled for efficient pow skiing. Learn both.

 

[SSSdave]

Naa, the most fun is to bounce in powder just as on smooth groomed arcing rhythmic dynamic carving turns or in bumps like an oscillator of left right rebounds. On my S7 I want to bounce poof bounce poof into softness over and over and over bouncing in the sweet luscious rebound center of the moving ski on and on.

 

[James]

Either way you want to use the energy built in the turn to lighten your skis in transition. The so called virtual bump, which exists on groomers too. With powder you also have the compression of the snow.
Porpoise turns are pretty damn fun.

Here’s some basics on powder by Klaus Mair. It’s not geared to retraction, and it ends before he really gets into it.

 

[François Pugh]

So just puzzled by why Lorenz, an extremely competent skier (!) describes these turns as 'rather difficult to perform', seemingly suggesting people start instead with a kind of up-unweighting in powder, something he doesn't suggest for piste skiing.

They are harder for folks who have an ingrained up-move release built into their skiing.

 

[Rod9301]

Either way you want to use the energy built in the turn to lighten your skis in transition. The so called virtual bump, which exists on groomers too. With powder you also have the compression of the snow.
Porpoise turns are pretty damn fun.

Here’s some basics on powder by Klaus Mair. It’s not geared to retraction, and it ends before he really gets into it.

See, I don't like his turns, he definitely has an up move.

But he's an instructor, so maybe he thinks that's easier to teach.

 

[James]

See, I don't like his turns, he definitely has an up move.

But he's an instructor, so maybe he thinks that's easier to teach.

Of course you don't. (Note- Captain Obvious says he predicted that)
That's not the point.

 

[Mike-AT]

In power most of my turns are flex to release, which you might call retraction.

If you tip a lot and pull your feet back a lot, you can make very short turns.

The up motion to get your feet out of the snow to turn is inefficient and slower.

Any howto-videos that show this approach? All the pow videos that I remember teach the trampoline/dolphin turn/extend-to-release method like e.g. in the Sofa video above.

With flex-to-release, would you also compress the snow by pushing(?) so you get a stable platform to turn? Flex-to-release on groomed runs are super smooth and there is no pushing involved, at least in my book. I wonder how this transfers to pow skiing?

 

[James]

Flex-to-release on groomed runs are super smooth and there is no pushing involved, at least in my book. I

The ski edges hold on the groomed in the turn. One extends in the belly of the turn anyway. If one is always flexed, flexing more and more will have you vanish into a point.
Yes, the powder compresses in the turn.

 

[Rod9301]

Any howto-videos that show this approach? All the pow videos that I remember teach the trampoline/dolphin turn/extend-to-release method like e.g. in the Sofa video above.

With flex-to-release, would you also compress the snow by pushing(?) so you get a stable platform to turn? Flex-to-release on groomed runs are super smooth and there is no pushing involved, at least in my book. I wonder how this transfers to pow skiing?

You extend gradually with Max extension right before you flex. It's effortless.

 

[tromano]

Any howto-videos that show this approach? All the pow videos that I remember teach the trampoline/dolphin turn/extend-to-release method like e.g. in the Sofa video above.

With flex-to-release, would you also compress the snow by pushing(?) so you get a stable platform to turn? Flex-to-release on groomed runs are super smooth and there is no pushing involved, at least in my book. I wonder how this transfers to pow skiing?

It's very similar to how you would make a turn on a groomer. Main difference being that in powder you take a more direct line down the hill. And a dolphin turn is a retraction turn.

 

[Mike-AT]

It's very similar to how you would make a turn on a groomer. Main difference being that in powder you take a more direct line down the hill. And a dolphin turn is a retraction turn.

Thanks for clearing up my misconception. I actually though Dolphin turns were rather extension turns (as you extend to hop off the ground and thereby release the edges). Interesting to see the part where the instructor talks about not hopping!