3D Joint Movements

[James]

From personal experience I can testify that muscularly maintaining a posterior-ish pelvic tilt (image below on right) helps undo the damage a big Q angle creates. It also activates core muscles and helps to solidify a floppy spine, which not everyone suffers from - but I do.

Do you work on this in the car? I've been playing with moving the pelvis back, feeling the lower back in the seat, and just lightly gripping the steering wheel. I find otherwise I tend to slouch and lean on the wheel. Its a default habit. Just not leaning on the wheel, having almost no forward weight on it, seems to make you use core muscles. Plus better posture. This is made easier by tilting the pelvis back.
Now how do you get the rounded back?

One more, then maybe I'll quit. Here's a skier with anterior pelvic tilt.
Another way of saying this is arched lower back; same thing.
We do NOT want to be doing this while skiing, no matter how high our skill level.

Well... She is controlling the relationship of her COM over her Base of Support.

 

[Eleeski]

I'm confused.

One more, then maybe I'll quit. Here's a skier with anterior pelvic tilt.
Another way of saying this is arched lower back; same thing.
We do NOT want to be doing this while skiing, no matter how high our skill level.

Breaking at the waist is one of the worst things any athlete can do - in any sport. "Good posture" is solid basics. This guy has a lot of it right. He's probably an experienced skier simulating a beginner stance. Straight legs and a rounded back hinged at the waist is the real mark of basics that restrict advancement.

Fixating on static skeletal formations distracts the real needs. Just drive your knees forward (or press the shins against the boot, or bend the ankles or weight the ball of the foot - whatever gets through) to get the right balance. Flexible legs coupled to a strong core with a nicely stacked upper body (easier with a little arch in the back) is paramount to good skiing.

For rounding the shoulders, I like to suggest feeling the inside of your parka with the space between your shoulder blades.

If your shoulders are rounded forward, you have no ability to absorb any perturbations that you will inevitably encounter. I'm not sure you should be pinching your shoulder blades together back either. A comfortable mid range position is much more useful than hunched shoulders. To be sure, some people need to be told extreme things to correct specific issues but feeling your parka across your back is not good general advice.

"Tuesdays In The Snow up" is my most effective coaching tip. Everyone gets it and you really can't do that without properly engaging the lower body.

Eric

Somehow my tip got autocorrected. I say it to the guys and girls equally so it shouldn't be a sexist thing. But you should be able to figure it out.

 

[James]

"Tuesdays In The Snow up" is my most effective coaching tip. Everyone gets it and you really can't do that without properly engaging the lower body.

I have no idea what that means. Explain?

 

[Eleeski]

@James It's hard enough to not understand (disagree with?) legendary coaches like @Kneale Brownson @LiquidFeet @Josh Matta and what seemed to me a very counter intuitive consensus. I can't round my back and do weird things with my butt and make it down the hill.

I certainly don't want to exacerbate my outsider position by offending the PC autocorrect. But "Breasts Up" just doesn't have the same ring.

Eric

 

[LiquidFeet]

For clarity:

Left image: shoulders rolled forward. Right image: shoulders neutral. You can imagine shoulders pulled back.
The "before and after" refers to some PT talking about good posture, not for skiing but for dryland life.

Here's Paul Lorenz demonstrating the "proper" athletic skiing stance.
His shoulders are rolled forward. This rolling of the shoulders forward does not bend the spine forward.
What you do with the shoulders is (ideally) independent of what you do with the spine.

 

[Eleeski]

By starting in the "after" position, the skier will be able to have a platform to drive the pole plant. Skiing is too dynamic to be locked in a single position.

While shoulder placement might not be necessary for 3d joint movements, dynamic movement of the entire body allows a smooth flow (despite imperfections in the snow). Starting with balanced good posture makes it easier to perform the athletic movements.

Contortions to do things like an aerodynamic tuck are an added degree of difficulty. Specific exercises for advanced skiers but not what defines a good skier.

Eric

 

[Mike King]

I find the discussion of shoulder orientation to be interesting. But, in my experience, it is pretty far down the list of issues I see in the skiers I instruct.

Mike

 

[karlo]

I was actually thinking anterior tilt

wow this is the first time I entirely disagree

Trying this just standing, I can see how a student could be one way or the other, one needing anterior adjustment, the other needing posterior. Me, I'd have a tough time discerning it, I think. What would the cue be for recommending one vs the other?

 

[Eleeski]

OK, I went out today and tried some shoulder and back variations. Shoulders forward in the bumps didn't work at all. The picture of Ted Ligety powering a gate in the Nastar ad at the Funitel had no shoulder roll. But cruising the oatmeal on top of ice, I found my hands would get behind me. Rolling my shoulders forward made a nice recovery - so there is some validity. But it's a dynamic thing, not a static position. Skiing next to some kids, I remembered yelling "hands downhill" to my kids. Some forward roll to the shoulders is needed for that. So shoulder position is a dynamic thing that needs to adapt to the specific situation and skier.

@karlo Wouldn't the skier need adjustment both ways depending on the terrain and snow? Again, the static position needs to adapt and adjust as the skier moves. Adjust dynamically to be comfortable and balanced in motion.

Eric

 

[Mike King]

Trying this just standing, I can see how a student could be one way or the other, one needing anterior adjustment, the other needing posterior. Me, I'd have a tough time discerning it, I think. What would the cue be for recommending one vs the other?

Take a pilates class and learn about a neutral spine.

 

[karlo]

OK, I went out today and tried some shoulder and back variations. Shoulders forward in the bumps

Doing some early season drills, I found I had to roll my shoulders forward, even felt like hunching my upper spine, to do higher speed outside-ski-only turns. I didn't like the feeling, the feeling of needing to do that.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Higher speed turns with skis up on edge, tails following tips, do require the upper body to be more forward than when coasting along at slower speeds on flattish skis. This is a balancing thing which is required to get the skis to perform.

Could your dislike of the feeling simple be coming from the unfamiliarity of what you had to do?
Or are you suspicious that what you had to do was in some way unorthodox?
Was it effective?

 

[karlo]

Could your dislike of the feeling simple be coming from the unfamiliarity of what you had to do?
Or are you suspicious that what you had to do was in some way unorthodox?
Was it effective?

Firstly, I don't like the look of it when I see others do it. Just an aesthetic thing. Second, I don't normally have to do it. But, I guess I found out that sometimes one has to do it. So, yes, it was effective to retain balance and to attain the ability to more quickly get onto the other ski. Gotta practice that drill more; then, no hunching needed.

 

[Rod9301]

Firstly, I don't like the look of it when I see others do it. Just an aesthetic thing. Second, I don't normally have to do it. But, I guess I found out that sometimes one has to do it. So, yes, it was effective to retain balance and to attain the ability to more quickly get onto the other ski. Gotta practice that drill more; then, no hunching needed.

Still, most racers have a rounded back.

 

[karlo]

most racers have a rounded back

I know. I'm not a racer and do not want to have the affectation. Besides, kind of like a runner, I don't want to be constantly in the position of leaning into a fast start. I'd rather have the posture and control they have when cruising. It's just my personal preference as a rec skier. That said, most skiers blow past me, including my kids.

 

[Eleeski]

Still, most racers have a rounded back.

Really? I'm not sure that I see that. The Ted Ligety picture on the Nastar ad certainly doesn't show that. While sometimes a skier will dive both hands forward around a gate, that is a momentary action. And a hands forward tuck is not a normal balance position but a wind resistance pose.

None of the freestyle team kids we watched in the bumps today ever rounded their backs.

Runners, even with a forward torso lean, don't roll their shoulders.

Start with the best balanced body position (including shoulders) and move as needed to react to the situation.

Scared cat with rounded shoulders.

Pouncing cat with shoulders back for attack.

Maybe it's just an attitude follows body position thing.

Eric

 

[karlo]

Scared cat with rounded shoulders

I think that is a poor analogy. When I had to do it, it was for the sake of balance. On the other hand, from a recreational skiing point of view, I think I had to do it on account of other deficiencies

 

[Rod9301]

I know. I'm not a racer and do not want to have the affectation. Besides, kind of like a runner, I don't want to be constantly in the position of leaning into a fast start. I'd rather have the posture and control they have when cruising. It's just my personal preference as a rec skier. That said, most skiers blow past me, including my kids.

You're not leaning forward, you are still centered, but with pressure on the tip of the skis, accomplished by pulling the feet back.

 

[Eleeski]

When I am at the top of a steep pitch, committing to a challenging zipper line, arcing a high gee turn or entering powdered trees, I have a bit of fear. If I start blocking the fear, I curl up to protect and ride my heels - all bad (scared cat). If I fully embrace the challenge with confidence, I open up and drive into the hill - and rock it (pouncing cat). The static body position I choose (and corresponding mental attitude) sets up my body for the challenge.

Once into the run, any necessary movements are in order. @karlo Round for balance for sure! But react back to the strongest attacking body position. Body position does affect attitude - and attitude is critical.

Eric

 

[Zentune]

Not sure if this has been said but anterior pelvic tilt, internal rotation, adduction, and pronation are the “suspension” phase, where we accept the load from the initial grf and posterior tilt, external rotation, abduction, and supination are the propulsion phase, where we resist/create a heavy grf. Anterior tilt usually presents with spinal extension and posterior with spinal flexion, sagitaly.

And Tom Gelle really knows his stuff, I’ve talked to him and his mentor Gary Ward at length via messenger

zenny