• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Why is edge to edge speed important?

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Posts
2,485
I see a lot of comments that say:
A wider ski might take longer to change edges, true.

But why is this important?

If you carve the top of the turn, a slower edge to edge will add to the transition length.

So it seems that this is important in short turns only, but this is also when there is a bit of skidding in the top of the turn.

If the top of the turn is pivoted, than it may not matter how long it takes to go edge to edge.

In bumps it probably matters.
 

DavidSkis

Thinking snow
Skier
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Posts
118
Location
Toronto
Even if you intended to pivot the top of the turn, it will still take more tipping effort and time to get the fat ski on edge through the middle of the turn. You need to adjust timing on a wide ski for the same result. (Not a bad thing in and of itself.) Edging is a different story though:

Wider skis shift the force vectors, or the line along which forces run up your knee. The wider the ski, the more off-center the force vector, which adds significantly more strain to ligaments. This is not an issue in powder where the snow platform is much wider.

Edge to edge speed is also important in firmer conditions where you want better grip. Skiing on the ice coast, I basically need to ride a slalom or GS ski for any kind of decent control.

TLDR: Sore knees on hardpack on a wide ski? A narrower ski can reduce strain. Skiing in the east? Narrow ski improves your grip and control.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123

Curious how wide do you guys think those skis are I am using here........

Honestly edge to edge quickness doesnt really get affect by how wide a ski is. The skills matter much more and being quicker is misnomer. I usually think that more patient and round my turns are whether at the speed in the video, or faster free skiing speed I need to patiently wait to tip down the hill, being slow and patient at the top make me appear quicker than I actually am.

I think torsional stiffness, and edge sharpness matters a ton more than how wide or narrow a ski is for edge grip.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,687
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
When making high performance turns on hard snow or ice, a narrow waisted ski that is quick edge to edge is much more pleasurable, in the same way a sport bike (race bike with lights) is more fun than a big SUV on a twisty mountain road. It's all about instant accurate response to your input and the sensory gratification that provides.
 
Last edited:

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,500
Location
The Bull City
In racing there is a school of thought that linking turns with minimal time on the flat ski between the turns is faster for turny courses. There is also the edge to flat ski and vice versa transition which is important for less turny courses but still important. Time and energy spent in transition is where speed can be lost and time wasted. Faster edge to edge, edge to flat, and flat to edge is less time in transition, no man's land and therefore faster run times.

As for bumps, yes, a better skier can manage stuff in the 90s and early 00s pretty well in the bumps but not even close to how well a pro handles a true bump ski. Josh's skiing is smooth and elegant, but a pro bumper would eat him alive in top to bottom time on a bump run... because edge to edge in the zipper line is pretty much EVERYTHING..
 

tball

Unzipped
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,371
Location
Denver, CO
Curious how wide do you guys think those skis are I am using here........
110 Sickles? They are surprisingly good in bumps, but still slower and more work than a narrower ski for me. Nice turns, regardless.

Bumps are the only reason I want to switch off my Sickles to a narrower ski after the powder gets tracked out. Most the time I don't, though, so it's not that miserable. I just slow down and ski a little rounder line in the bumps. I really enjoy the wider ski in the leftovers on a chopped up cruiser too.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
If down hill speed is what is important in a bump field, zipper line is the last thing you want to do.


but the entire point of posting that video was to see 109mm NOrdica El capos do not looks slower edge to edge. The reality is most people will not be affected by slowness of lack of edge grip from a wider ski. Its there skills and tactics not skis that are holding them back.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,687
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I suck at bump skiing. That being said, I did ski a pair of Völkl 100-8s in a number of black diamond bump runs yesterday. These skis are 108 mm wide at the waist. In the morning, when they had snow to work with they were great. In the afternoon, when the back (dowhill) side of the moguls had been scraped off, it was clear that they were not designed for harder snow.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
why would you ski on the backside? Why not just make turns where everything is like a berm turn.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,727
Location
New England
@Josh Matta, Thanks for the term "Berm Turn." I've struggled to describe this to others, and there it is, plain and simple, in two words.

I'm thinking that a Berm Turn is going up and over the berm (bump in front of you as you go across the hill), then WHEEEE ride the ramp on the next bump over (the outside wall of the trough over there); this ends with skis pointing in the new direction. Repeat; up-and-over a bump, then WHEEEEE around on the neighboring ramp, repeat.

These turns don't require edged skis. Skis stay pretty flat going over the berm-bump, and they stay flat to the snow surface when riding the ramp.
Is this what you are talking about, Josh?
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,687
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
why would you ski on the backside? Why not just make turns where everything is like a berm turn.
That, more or less, is what I decided do after the third scrape. I am a non conformist with no shame. I don't need to turn where everyone else does. As the day wore on it was harder to find spots to turn that were not polished smooth.
Regardless, for me, a narrower ski with more edge grip and less edge give would have been better suited to the afternoon moguls.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
yep, its pretty clear that what I am doing in the video as well. You need to add speed control sometimes and sometimes its just totally a no go in certain styles of bumps but it my go to tactic when it is present.

its amazing so many people are unable to see that line....
 

Doby Man

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Posts
406
Location
Mostly New England
You mean the zipper line? It looks like you are skiing the troughs but a bit wide to me. A good form of speed control and to avoid much of the flexing and absorbing. Though, I don’t see how mogul skiing is very relevant to the speed of ski tipping rotation when you don’t have to tip the ski very much at all. It is the moguls themselves, that are ‘tipped”. As a matter of fact, a geometric argument could be made that wide skis are going to be quicker in the bumps due to quicker/closer edge contact with the sides of the troughs providing a quicker and more “grabby” edge bite and especially when turning on the berms. The only reason I prefer a narrow ski in the bumps is because it is a more nimble setup.

Though it may be mathematically/geometrically true that a wider ski requires more tipping rotation to reach the same tipping angles, it is my experience that, by itself, these are very small numbers that do not make very much of a difference at all. However, it is generally true that increasing ski width is often complimented with a softer shovel and a straighter sidecut which do make more of a difference in getting a quick response from the ski.

Moguls aside, technically, it is very beneficial to have a very short “transition” period between turns. It is advantageous to be able to “always be turning” and, thus, always be tipping at a constant and uninterrupted rate to maintain flow and rhythm but to also have more time/space within the same turn distance with which to further more evenly spread the forces of the turn (more control), both advantages of which are beneficial in virtually all carving scenarios if not all else. To be carving early in the high “C”, that space for more carving needs to come from somewhere within the predesignated radius of the turn. A long meaningless transition is wasted opportunity.

When the space between the pencil thin rail marks on the snow are shorter than the length of your ski, you will know that the quickness in transition is about as quick as it can be. There are too many good skiers that slow down or hesitate tipping when close to neutral/transition which produces a seam in movements or a flat spot in the aesthetic that, instead, need to flow into each other, visible and otherwise. Many, instead, prefer to ski one turn at a time. When the rate of tipping is constant/consistent throughout an entire turn set, things are looking good. Unless one needs to be turn shopping on difficult terrain, rhythm and flow produced from a constant rate of tipping can only help.


I like the term I read from a @BornToSki683 post: “finishiation”.
 

jack97

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Posts
924
.... I don’t see how mogul skiing is very relevant to the speed of ski tipping rotation when you don’t have to tip the ski very much at all. It is the moguls themselves, that are ‘tipped”.

Moguls comes in different shapes and the cadence/formation varies, the narrow ski allows for faster control of edge angle, that allows another degree of freedom of whether you want to ski the shoulders high or low.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,650
Location
PNW aka SEA
Seems there are many strong opinions here and arguing for the sake of exceptions... I have a take, but not really a care. Spent Sat morning on a 106 and the afternoon on an 88 skiing by and large the same terrain. A few days before were on an SL ski. FWIW, and IMHO only, narrower skis are more precise edge to edge no matter the terrain. At a certain point, precision can take a backseat and a wider platform can be advantageous/easier for many skiers in certain condtions. What those conditions are can be debated all day as we all have different sensations that bring us pleasure skiing. That said, if 110's made better zipper line or SL ski, I think we'd have seen a Bode'esque figure coming along and crush the competition like he did with K2 Fours years ago when the completion insisted on 'straight is great'. In racing, there are minimum widths, but nothing said about maximums. Interesting that slope style and park skis are relatively narrow as well. Ski what makes you smile. If one can make a 125 rip the zipper line, then go for it... doubtful we'll see it at the competitive level, but whatever.
 
Last edited:

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
yeah I am not saying huge skis are better on harder snow, what I am saying its less of handicap than most people will think. I generally am not using anything wide than like 85 under foot on hard snow because its crushes my feet.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,500
Location
The Bull City
For me in the bumps, weight is almost as important as width. If I'm pounding semi hop turns back and forth the less weight I'm pulling around the better.

Here's a good video of the motions involved in getting edge to edge quick in the bumps and anyone that looks at this and says 110mm skis aren't that much more difficult to get back and forth than 65mm skis are.. well, we'll just have to agree to disagree..
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
well yeah if your pivot slamming bumps then you want the narrowest ski possible......Mosley doesnt even pivot slam bumps anymore.....

I am certain mosley on a 100 mm ski could outski all of us in bumps, heck I have actually seen him in person at stowe doing just that during an AIG event. He also wasnt zipperlining by the choices of words being used by you and TBall. HE would have suffer in the woods that day, on a 'bump" ski.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,650
Location
PNW aka SEA
CR, why would you be making 'semi-hop' turns for any other reason than 'they feel cool'? I can't think of much that would be more exhausting and day shortening for anyone but the most athletically fit skiers, and even they'd ask the same question. When Johnny is skiing (and Josh, and t-ball, and....) , his skis are ON the snow... sliding, slipping, gliding, pivoting, tipping. Anyhow...
 
Last edited:

jack97

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Posts
924
^^^ IMO, the Mosely dryland is the most mis-understood vid. Again, IMO, its about negative resistance (using own body weight) training and proprioception. Skipping over from shoulder to shoulder (or sometimes near peak) of the bumps is a very efficient way to descend down the run.


Jon Smart does this at 1:41



Slow mo of this technique from a great bumper who unfortunately died too young.




These types of turns were typical done during Mosely's era but are no longer in vogue since Dale Begg Smith blew away the field during his Torrino 06 run.
 
Last edited:

Sponsor

Staff online

Top