Why do carvers have edge hold on ice?

[LouD-Truckee]

it's not the arrow..... :O

 

[AngryAnalyst]

hmm, I think I have pair, unless you don't want any front rocker.

4FRNT 194 devs actually seem great based on the blister reviews. Stiff plus rocker is what I want. I would like that construction in a narrower shape with camber under foot a la the PB&J. I think that to generate a comparably stiff ski in a narrower waist you need metal. Am I wrong about that?

 

[KingGrump]

What was your experience?

Not well when compared to my other skis.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Interesting thought. What are you trying to get? Quick turns on ice? Smooth carving? Versatility? Different goals with different designs.

Skis are pretty torsionally rigid nowadays. No real downside to a torsionally stiff ski so it's easy to add enough material to resist the twist. Lots of ways to do this that aren't limited to race construction.

Controlling where the edge pressure intersects the snow is the art. Camber and the stiffness profile along the ski control that.

Rocker makes a ski effectively feel shorter while keeping area for soft snow. For the edge holding, ignore most of what is outside the rockering. Make the edge area lively (stiff?). I'd avoid getting super stiff in the rockered area.

It will be a complex core/layup. But not particularly difficult.

A lot of what we think doesn't translate into a real ski's design. Trial and error is very useful. Don't be afraid to grind the ski to try to change characteristics.

A lot of good design work has been done. Examine and measure skis you like. Also look at some exotic designs (Anton Gliders?) for ideas on alternative ways to generate edge power.

Do you have access to presses, ptex, edges, composites and cores? If so, experiment and tell us what works!

Eric

I don't have access to the equipment to make the thing. I also got a "C" in shop class, so I don't think I'm building it myself. I would be paying someone (there are a few companies that do this) a bunch of money to make it as a one off. For the exact reason you highlight (trial and error) I want to basically "borrow" the geometry of existing skis and change the core a bit. I recognize that is a plan of questionable intelligence.

My basic concept was Head Monster 98 core with more tail rocker than that ski actually had (old spec guide says about 17 mm of tail rocker, I was thinking 30-ish).

 

[Josh Matta]

yeah like I said I have skied the Black Crowes Daemon its basically what you are looking for.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

yeah like I said I have skied the Black Crowes Daemon its basically what you are looking for.

I doubt that - I actually want camber underfoot. Several people have mentioned that this makes the ski unstable - can anyone expand?

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Your front-to-back balance sweet spot becomes much smaller in all edging regimes and you become locked into one turn exit shape with everything else being tail-chattery. The ski stops wanting to adapt to the snow.

And yes, I have skis like you say you want. Just ask @KingGrump - he flexed them over the weekend and just looked at me funny.

What are these skis you speak of?

 

[Josh Matta]

having camber underfoot wont make it un stable...

 

[cantunamunch]

What are these skis you speak of?

Ash/black locust core with two layers of carbon, slight camber underfoot.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Ash/black locust core with two layers of carbon, slight camber underfoot.

Are those the Mad Russian Skis? How do they work for you?

 

[AngryAnalyst]

having camber underfoot wont make it un stable...

I think what I want is closer to a narrower '16-'18 Corvus than a Daemon for whatever it's worth. Cantamunch (possibly someone else) said it makes the 'sweet spot' narrow in a turn.

 

[cantunamunch]

Are those the Mad Russian Skis? How do they work for you?

The first pair taught me a lot about how bad my boots were. The second pair is exactly what I wanted - or better.

 

[François Pugh]

All one has to do is carve some turns on hardpack with an old pair of Fischer SCs back to back with a pair of skis with rocker to know that your idea is a non-starter. Rockered skis have their place, and hard snow is not it.

 

[Josh Matta]

All one has to do is carve some turns on hardpack with an old pair of Fischer SCs back to back with a pair of skis with rocker to know that your idea is a non-starter. Rockered skis have their place, and hard snow is not it.

I dont agree for non carving and for off piste skiing.

 

[Freddo Bumps]

I’d highly suggest giving Folsom a call. They are great to talk with and very willing to offer insight and opinions.

 

[James]

You can demo Black Crows in Killington at Forerunner.
4Frnt is basically now mail order only afaik. I think they were trying to have the shops that demoed them continue but without selling. One shop I know said no.

 

[François Pugh]

The skis job is to transmit force along the ski - to the tip and tail. The amount of force transmitted is related to the amount the ski is deflected from its unloaded position. If you take civil engineering you will come across the beam deflection equation, but to keep it simple - no deflection = no force applied.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

All one has to do is carve some turns on hardpack with an old pair of Fischer SCs back to back with a pair of skis with rocker to know that your idea is a non-starter. Rockered skis have their place, and hard snow is not it.

Josh said it already, but I agree I would not choose a rockered ski if I were skiing a race course or icy cordoroy all day.

Icy cordoroy is rather dramatically different than what I actually ski in Vermont when it hasn’t snowed in a while. What I actually ski is a mixture of icy bumps and breakable crust with some icy luge tracks in trees. If you like skiing bumps and trees on GS skis, great but it’s pretty strictly worse than rocker in most people’s opinion.

 

[James]

So...op started a thread about carving on ice but really wanted an all around east coast mid fat for trees? I guess that's creative.

 

[Dwight]

I’d highly suggest giving Folsom a call. They are great to talk with and very willing to offer insight and opinions.

I would also contact Jason at Jskis.com