What is the difference in feeling between 65mm ski and 80mm ski?

[Tony Storaro]

If you put the ski flat on your bench, the base profile (camber, rocker, early rise) dictates the contact point.
Roll the ski up on edge then the side cut profile will dictate the contact point.
If the ski is up on edge amd you drive the ski forward and bend the tip or the ski hits a irregularity in the snow, where is the contact point?

But If the ski hits an irregularity in the snow the contact point could be anywhere up to the very tip, I don’t think this is what is meant by “contact point”.
Anyway, point is these sections on the fischers-below and above the black ptex-should they be sharpened or not?

 

[KingGrump]

Anyway, point is these sections on the fischers-below and above the black ptex-should they be sharpened or not?

Yes. Sharpen every mm of it.

Why do skiers want the tail "detuned"? So the ski can release easier. Skillset issue?
Why "detune" the tip? They say it would make the ski not so grabby. It's all about finesse. Another skillset issue.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Yes. Sharpen every mm of it.

Why do skiers want the tail "detuned"? So the ski can release easier. Skillset issue?
Why "detune" the tip? They say it would make the ski not so grabby. It's all about finesse. Another skillset issue.

OK, clear now. I like the FIS SL, the WRTs and the Hero Masters tuned like that but hate the Stormriders 95 and basically any ski over 80 mm and still detune them.

 

[KingGrump]

but hate the Stormriders 95 and basically any ski over 80 mm and still detune them.

Give it time.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Give it time.

Maybe but I do not want them to behave like the skinny carvers. But it is probably a matter of time indeed as once I got used to the savage instant bite of the tips of the FIS Sl I found the detuned ski to be…bland, lacking spice, not agressive enough…neutered… so I moved all the sub 70mm ski to sharp tips.

 

[tromano]

But If the ski hits an irregularity in the snow the contact point could be anywhere up to the very tip, I don’t think this is what is meant by “contact point”.
Anyway, point is these sections on the fischers-below and above the black ptex-should they be sharpened or not?

It's not. Contact point is the end points of the part of the edge that contacts snow when the skis are decambered or bent into reverse camber.

I think tuning the skis beyond the contact points is pretty hard to accomplish and doesn't add much to performance. Likely the bases are not ground flat beyond the contact points so that's another thing. Generally I will sharpen until the curvature is too much for my file to cut straight.

 

[tromano]

Maybe but I do not want them to behave like the skinny carvers. But it is probably a matter of time indeed as once I got used to the savage instant bite of the tips of the FIS Sl I found the detuned ski to be…bland, lacking spice, not agressive enough…neutered… so I moved all the sub 70mm ski to sharp tips.

They won't behave the same.

 

[KingGrump]

Maybe but I do not want them to behave like the skinny carvers. But it is probably a matter of time indeed as once I got used to the savage instant bite of the tips of the FIS Sl I found the detuned ski to be…bland, lacking spice, not agressive enough…neutered… so I moved all the sub 70mm ski to sharp tips.

Find the peace. Don't feed the beast.

 

[Tony S]

Plenty of days the groomers are soft enough that a ski's edges will Penetrate a cm or more into the corduroy.

 

[David Chaus]

Translation:
“You are in Utah, I am in Maine. In Maine, there are no days in which the groomers are anything other than bulletproof. This is why apre-ski, including drinking fine wine, is so necessary.”

 

[James]

Yeah, there must be a reason why these bases look like that:

For Fischer, the blinding yellow base is for
1) Signaling the International Space Station in clear weather
2) Signaling search and rescue in fog.

Atomic bases are a color aliens can see better. That’s what Atomic claims, but I’m dubious. Where’s the data?

This is why coaches put them base up at the start. Hoping to gain favor from above. Dave Ryding?? - Fischer. People think it’s for waxing, but that’s secondary.

You sharpen till the end of the black sections or continue beyond them? The black sections on the Fischers I mean.

Sharpening the parts you don’t ski with is dangerous. Yes, it coincides mostly with the black, but some skis (the good ones) the bases are Pink Floyd- all black.

Even in a Hirscher nose wheelie, if the curved up part of the tip digs in, he’s screwed and will get launched. Lots of newer carvers/race skis bring the functional sidecut up into the beginning of the curve, but not that far.

If you put the ski upside down, lean it against a wall, the part touching the ground should be round or whatever non engaging shape you want. Back from that, towards the functional edge, you get to decide. Slalom skis have a protector there at the tip, so they’re not likely to catch.
It’s shocking how a ski can catch the tip and launch someone. I’ve seen it and had it happen. Both at quite mellow speeds.

 

[crgildart]

Yes. Sharpen every mm of it.

Why do skiers want the tail "detuned"? So the ski can release easier. Skillset issue?
Why "detune" the tip? They say it would make the ski not so grabby. It's all about finesse. Another skillset issue.

Just be sure to tighten your binding DIN more to handle the excess chatter.. Or skillset issue?

 

[BMC]

OK. Stable how? Stable where? How can 80mm be more stable on a groomer? How does that even work? I can only imagine something like the snow shoes effect-powder or deep crud and one skis with minimal edging. Then yeah, maybe but on a groomer? No way.
Except if the skier “skis’ on the bases mainly, which unless the snow is 1 meter deep and/or your name is Candide Tovex is not exactly skiing. And there is something else-putting beginners on fat skis is a disservice to them as this effectively steepens the learning curve and hampers the progress to carved turns.

Ok I think your own post acknowledges that an 80mm ski will feel more stable than a 65mm one;

• In Fresh snow
• In Crud
• For Lower level skiers skidding turns on groomers.

I’d add here;

• Slush
• Rain affected snow
• most skiers in piled up soft bumps

Where a 65mm ski will feel more stable is under the feet of a technically strong or at least technically interested skier on ice and firm groomers. And that’s great, if that’s the focus.

Where a lower level skier may also find a wider ski more stable is…wait…groomers! A narrower ski will be more reactive which a lower level skier may and probably will feel as less stability.

Whether an emerging skier should or shouldn’t be on a narrower ski or a narrower all mountain ski is, frankly, something I don’t care much about.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Ok I think your own post acknowledges that an 80mm ski will feel more stable than a 65mm one;

• In Fresh snow
• In Crud
• For Lower level skiers skidding turns on groomers.

I’d add here;

• Slush
• Rain affected snow
• most skiers in piled up soft bumps

Where a 65mm ski will feel more stable is under the feet of a technically strong or at least technically interested skier on ice and firm groomers. And that’s great, if that’s the focus.

Where a lower level skier may also find a wider ski more stable is…wait…groomers! A narrower ski will be more reactive which a lower level skier may and probably will feel as less stability.

Whether an emerging skier should or shouldn’t be on a narrower ski or a narrower all mountain ski is, frankly, something I don’t care much about.

Matter of fact in not so deep crud and slush the wider ski get deflected much more while 66-68 heavy ski cut through the stuff.
Putting beginners on wide ski (again) in fact slows down their development. The perceived better stability of wide ski is false-they are harder to turn, harder to put on edge and lead to developing bad habits. If the goal is to teach the people to aimlessly skid around on the slopes-fine but that’s not really skiing.

 

[KingGrump]

Just be sure to tighten your binding DIN more to handle the excess chatter.. Or skillset issue?

Just the same skillset issues many racers have with their higher DIN bindings.

TBH, some of us are on skis more than we're on our keyboards.

 

[tromano]

Translation:
“You are in Utah, I am in Maine. In Maine, there are no days in which the groomers are anything other than bulletproof. This is why apre-ski, including drinking fine wine, is so necessary.”

Tbh, when I skied in the east there were plenty of spring thaw days. But that was in PA, not ME.

And your right, après ski translates to groomers in the French to Utahn bilingual dictionary.

 

[crgildart]

Just the same skillset issues many racers have with their higher DIN bindings.

TBH, some of us are on skis more than we're on our keyboards.

Many racers also use variable tunes. Finesse and glass houses. FWIW I haven't detuned in over 20 years... except dedicated bump skis just a tiny bit far ends where the tips tails turn up.

But when skiing normal mainstream groomed terrain, neither detuning nor way high DIN is necessary.. Proper technique, AKA finesse, resolves both issues.

FWIW I'm 100% with you in the top buckles loosey goosey. It's just we have our own preferences.. I think folks need to be extra careful when going beyond the DIN charts though.. If you know you're strong enough have at it... but it might not be necessary even if you are.

 

[KingGrump]

Many racers also use variable tunes. Finesse and glass houses. FWIW I haven't detuned in over 20 years... except dedicated bump skis just a tiny bit far ends where the tips tails turn up.

But when skiing normal mainstream groomed terrain, neither detuning nor way high DIN is necessary.. Proper technique, AKA finesse, resolves both issues.

FWIW I'm 100% with you in the top buckles loosey goosey. It's just we have our own preferences.. I think folks need to be extra careful when going beyond the DIN charts though.. If you know you're strong enough have at it... but it might not be necessary even if you are.

As I have said to @Tony Storaro , "You do you and I'll be OK."

 

[crgildart]

As I have said to @Tony Storaro , "You do you and I'll be OK."

Agreed. Fair game when you call someone out about detuning as a skillset problem.. boot buckles, binding DIN.. It's all dialed in to our own skillset best we can. When I see someone (else) throwing shade I'm probably going to call something out. And, I expect folks to reciprocate, because that's what we do on the internet.

 

[KingGrump]

Agreed. Fair game when you call someone out about detuning as a skillset problem.. boot buckles, binding DIN.. It's all dialed in to our own skillset best we can. When I see someone (else) throwing shade I'm probably going to call something out. And, I expect folks to reciprocate, because that's what we do on the internet.

On the net, everybody is an expert skier. Whether they have been on the snow yet is irrelevant. Everyone should have a soap box and a voice. I mean I am all for participation trophy, thanks for showing up and whatnot.
However, words from a skier that logs hundred plus days per season consistently year after year should carry more weight than someone that logs four or five days per season.

ETA: Speaking of skiing smoothly. I do not believe I had the pleasure to make turns with you.