Weighted release and gliding

[Rod9301]

I'm working on improving my weighted release in short turns.
In medium radius turns, i glide a bit at the end of the turn on the outside edge of the old inside ski(which now is the uphill ski).

Is the glide necessary on weighted release turns?
Is there enough time, or need, to do the same in short radius turns?

 

[Chris V.]

Can you rephrase? The way I'm interpreting what you say seems questionable.

 

[Rod9301]

Edited, sorry for the confusion

 

[Chris V.]

What you describe isn't my understanding of a weighted release. That would, instead, be finishing the turn with weight mostly on the outside ski, as usual, then keeping the balance on that ski through the transition.

 

[Rod9301]

Ok, that's what i thought, that you can't glide on the outside edge of the old inside ski.

 

[Mike B]

Ok, that's what i thought, that you can't glide on the outside edge of the old inside ski.

Yes you can. It is situational, but useful. What ski do you think good skiers are gliding on when their new inside ski is off the snow and which edge would you guess they are gliding on the new outside ski at first? Ever try a proper stork turn or tracer turn where the new inside ski is picked up going across the hill and not picked up going downhill, which is cheating as far as some believe). (in other words edge change before turning).
I think you may have just changed your idea of what a weighted release is with that last comment. You somehow flipped it to an unweighted release, which can be done. But if you want to understand a weighted release Chris gave good advice.

Edit: if its the old inside ski the ski you are standing on is the new outside ski, correct? You cant have a new outside ski and refer to the old edges. They correlate.

 

[Rod9301]

Yes you can. It is situational, but useful. What ski do you think good skiers are gliding on when their new inside ski is off the snow and which edge would you guess they are gliding on the new outside ski at first? Ever try a proper stork turn or tracer turn where the new inside ski is picked up going across the hill and not picked up going downhill, which is cheating as far as some believe). (in other words edge change before turning).
I think you may have just changed your idea of what a weighted release is with that last comment. You somehow flipped it to an unweighted release, which can be done. But if you want to understand a weighted release Chris gave good advice.

Edit: if its the old inside ski the ski you are standing on is the new outside ski, correct? You cant have a new outside ski and refer to the old edges. They correlate.

I meant that if you want to do a weighted release, you can't glide on the outside edge of the old inside ski

Of course, in other releases you can and
Should

 

[LiquidFeet]

Is the glide necessary on weighted release turns?

I meant that if you want to do a weighted release, you can't glide on the outside edge of the old inside ski.

Correct. No glide on that old inside ski's little toe edge is possible in a weighted release.

When you release the old outside ski by lightening it (a regular flexed release), the weight transfers immediately to the old inside ski. That ski at transfer will still be on its little toe edge, and you can glide a bit on that little toe edge before allowing it to flip onto its big toe edge.

However, when you do a weighted release, you flex that old outside leg to release the hold that ski has on the snow - but you don't allow it to become light. You continue to keep your weight on it as you flex that leg as your hip moves down towards the snow. It will flip from its big toe edge to its little toe edge, weighted. The downward movement of your hip tips the still light old inside ski from its little toe edge onto its big toe edge. Weight will not yet have transferred to it as it flips.

Weighted release: edge change precedes weight transfer.
Flexed release: weight transfer precedes edge change.

So to answer your question, the old outside ski flips onto its little toe edge BEFORE your weight transfers to the old inside ski, ao you are not going to be gliding on the old inside ski's little toe edge because your weight is not yet on it until it's on the big toe edge. It will flip before it gets weighted.

You may actually glide for a nanosecond on the little toe edge of the weighted new inside ski after it flips and before your weight transfers.

In this way the weighted release resembles the White Pass Turn, only the new outside ski is not in the air at edge change..

 

[stevo]

I'm not so sure the so called "weighted" release is exactly the same as a white pass. Might a valid "weighted release" include the possibility that some period of time will happen where there is some weight on both skis?, rather then a sudden weight transfer from downhill ski to uphill ski...more of a gradual...weighted....release...? some weight perhaps on both skis for a period...in which case, I think the uphill ski could very well "glide" for a bit.

 

[Chris V.]

^^ Well, there's nothing absolute in skiing movements.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

As a drill try your weighted release with the tails crossed. Like a backwards javelin. Start in a longer radius and make it shorter and shorter. You'll be gliding at first, but that moment on the pinky toe edge will get shorter and shorter.

 

[razie]

What you describe isn't my understanding of a weighted release. That would, instead, be finishing the turn with weight mostly on the outside ski, as usual, then keeping the balance on that ski through the transition.

Correct - the weighted release means to glide longer on the old outside ski, change edges while still weighted and thus start the new turn on the what becomes the inside edge of the new inside ski. Was "invented" by one of the Mahre brothers if I'm not mistaken and it's a tactical thing to delay engagement. It also has applicability off-piste. The white pass drill is somewhat similar.

Ok, that's what i thought, that you can't glide on the outside edge of the old inside ski.

To get there you'd have to transfer to that ski and then tip it, but as it changes edges then it becomes the new outside ski... so yes you'd be gliding on the outside edge of the old inside ski, which is the inside edge of the new outside ski, no?

Since the weighted release is useful to delay engagement, I don't think it has much applicability in short turns. You'll see it sometimes in GS, but not as much in SL.

 

[stevo]

White pass turn is as you describe. A so called weighted release does not need to be to the extreme of a white pass turn and probably isn’t most of the time. And it can definitely be used in SRT. All it really means is that weight transfer to the new outside ski is not 100% initially. It doesn’t necessarily mean 0%. It simply means tipping movements are happening before weight transfer is completed. It’s a useful skill set for variable conditions.

white pass by the mahre’s was created as a racing technique at the time and perhaps is useful generally today as a drill for various reasons. The so called weighted release is not such an extreme form meant as a drill, it’s meant as a skill to develop that will happen while skiing when weight transfer is not able to happen perfectly

@razie https://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Weighted_release

my pov is also that white pass turns as a drill are generally of the nature where we are staying close to 100% on the inside ski until around the apex of the turn. In a more practical weighted release we will probably be still striving to get to the outside ski sooner then later, it’s just that the release happens while weighted on that ski at least somewhat

 

[LiquidFeet]

White pass turn is as you describe. A so called weighted release does not need to be to the extreme of a white pass turn and probably isn’t most of the time. And it can definitely be used in SRT. All it really means is that weight transfer to the new outside ski is not 100% initially. It doesn’t necessarily mean 0%. It simply means tipping movements are happening before weight transfer is completed. It’s a useful skill set for variable conditions.

Yes.

Saying this again, in slightly different words: In a weighted release, the skier flexes the old outside leg to release the old turn, the body crosses the skis, the edges of both skis change as a result, and they engage. The skier needs to keep most of the weight on that old outside ski through this initiation or it's not a weighted release. Instead, it will be a normal flexed release.

So the old outside ski flips from its big toe edge to its little toe edge while staying fully weighted. Then the skis will begin to point downhill - with weight on the little toe edge of the old outside/new inside ski, similar to a White Pass Turn. Just before or at the fall line the weight naturally transfers to the new outside ski.

Weighted release: Release, engage, transfer. (R,E,T)
Flexed release (not weighted): Release, transfer, engage. (R,T,E)

I must admit I haven't found a good use for this maneuver in normal recreational skiing.

 

[razie]

Yeah I mean everytime you go 0 vs 100% in something, you're talking drilling/learning... or some extreme situation requiring extreme solutions.

Besides the drill-learning benefits involved (balance on LTE, definite move into the new turn, no hopping out of the turn etc) the only tactical benefit is delaying the apex. For instance you're too early or too low and you'd double-turn on course or some bump or a patch of ice comes up and you need to alter the line to wait some more or you're out of balance etc - that's why it's less applicable to a short turn - basically it won't be short anymore... well, to be precise, the next apex would be further across the hill than otherwise, so I guess sure, it can be used in a sequence of short radius turns but the line would look different.

 

[razie]

Weighted release: Release, engage, transfer. (R,E,T)
Flexed release (not weighted): Release, transfer, engage. (R,T,E)

I must admit I haven't found a good use for this maneuver in normal recreational skiing.

Cool - I was looking for those.

It's good for dealing with 3D snow, it happens subconciously sometimes. After you transfer, you can't control the rate of the body moving into the new turn anymore (feet are behind in that direction, you can only accelerate it but you can't slow it anymore). Spending more time on the old foot gives you some control over that, since the feet are still engaged below the body. Also you can get more deflection across the hill in the mean time, while you solve your particular math trajectory equations. And other times just 'cause you're bored and why not

 

[stevo]

Hey once upon a time I was pretty adept at white pass drills.....did a lot of them, got it down. Haven't done them in a long time. I just don't see them as being part of regular skiing other then saying shit happens sometimes and being "able" to start the turn on that inside ski and transfer to the outside later is a valuable skill to have so that when you find yourself there its no big deal. I don't race, perhaps in racing there could be some tactical advantages I'm not aware of, I leave that to you racer guys..

But back in the PSIA days I got pretty adept at doing the 100% untransferred turn entry white pass, with my new outside ski lifted in the air to prove it; and setting it down at the apex. What worked for me at the time was thinking about skiing apex-to-apex, on one ski, then the other ski on the other side apex to apex. The transition was something that happened in the middle completely on one ski basically. I felt this was good practice for balance skill development if nothing else, but also a good one for generally allowing the CoM to crossover and not blocking that. I would use a slight relaxation release on my one footed release, to help that happen, but just finding that state of balance where you aren't falling over and are fully allowing the CoM to move across..that is what I got out of it the most, as a drill.

When talking about "weighted releases" I guess it depends on the audience and where the term is coming from and being asked about, but I view that as more of a practical thing that probably happens in a lot of my turns all over the mountain other then when I'm just skiing groomers. I think some of the advantages I mentioned above can also be learned by drilling it, its just I perceive it as less drastic and pronounced. No ski lifted in the air to prove anything, and if anything it gets away with less refined balance then regular skiing on the outside ski.

 

[stevo]

- that's why it's less applicable to a short turn - basically it won't be short anymore... well, to be precise, the next apex would be further across the hill than otherwise, so I guess sure, it can be used in a sequence of short radius turns but the line would look different.

I have a different point of view. I think a weighted release means less you have to do before getting to the edges...could very well be useful in a short turn. It doesn't neccessarily mean you're offsetting more across the hill. It probably means your CoM is moving across your skis prior to transfer which actually could indicate faster edge change, but late actual pressure and engagement on the outside ski.

 

[Rod9301]

I'm trying to use the weighted release in bumps.