"Unlearning" a movement pattern and replacing it ... success stories

[LiquidFeet]

Instructors encounter students with deeply embedded movement patterns that need to be unlearned and replaced. Helping such students do the switch is a difficult task. It's hard for the instructor to teach the new pattern because the old habit is so strong, and it's hard for the student to do the long-term follow-up after the lesson that will make the new pattern stick.

Maybe it would be good to read some success stories. I'm wondering how many of us have personally replaced an old deeply embedded movement pattern in our skiing. How did you discover you needed to do something fundamentally different? How did you accomplish the switch? Was it as difficult to do as the horror stories indicate? Does the old pattern resurface on occasion?

From your vantage point now, would you say the first movement pattern served you well for a while, before you replaced it? Or do you wish you'd never learned it in the first place because it inhibited a faster progression in your skiing skills?

 

[Plai]

Love the topic!

I'm not a ski instructor and don't play one on TV, just a nerdy enthusiast, weekend warrior without any racing background. I mostly self teach from videos, reading this site, and books. I'll take a lesson a couple times a season. (This season being the exception due to scheduling and current national crisis.)
Unraveling my misunderstandings (bad habits) is my current state.

One drill I really like is the pivot slip. I can do them on greens and light blues. Never considered them for blacks/steeps. I would always find myself unbalanced, unstacked on blacks and in bumps. I was very conscious of this for the past few seasons. I would always think my solution was to "get more aggressive", "angulate more", and worked on "aggressive and forward movements".

It wasn't until a recent conversation with @Philpug about other things when my unstacked-ness came up. He mentioned pivot slips. I replied, already done. He prodded, but on steeps. The light went off in my head.

So, next couple (and last) days on snow were focused on staying stacked and using pivot slips everywhere. I'm more relaxed and comfortable, am facing the fall line better, and agulating easier and better. All the usual lines were easier, more confident, and more importantly, more stable even at speed.

But, it's not the old habits. It's not what my muscle memory says to do, even with the new ease. It's a conscious effort to be stacked. So, now I have to slow down, stop and reset more often until it becomes more natural, a unconscious part of me. That said, my sense of something not right is heightened, so this is really a good thing.

Did the old thought patterns help? No, not really. I think the key to this sport is staying balanced. We don't emphasize this enough. There's too much "aggressive", ego. This was a long detour from stable development.

Not the completed transformation story requested in the OP, but rather a WIP

 

[Steve]

The classic pivot initiation, rotary push off, has been very difficult for me to unlearn in my own skiing, although I pretty much have done it.

That's why I like teaching early weight transfer. Yes as @vindibona1 said in another thread, it can lead to a movement up the hill with the COM at first, but to me that's easier to unlearn then bracing against the equipment at the bottom of the turn, which makes a pivot necessary.

Another great quote from Bob Barnes related to this.

"Almost always, what we tend to describe as "errors" are really solutions--solutions to some real problem that really needs solving. For example because of the loss of turn shape (and the two paths consequently no longer intersecting as you exit the turn), one would need to twist their tails out to the side to start the next turn. And given that need, rotation/rotary pushoff is a highly effective way to accomplish it. So the key to success cannot be to eliminate the solution to a problem--it must be to eliminate the problem itself!"

 

[mdf]

The classic pivot initiation, rotary push off, has been very difficult for me to unlearn in my own skiing, although I pretty much have done it.

Me too. I was a classic heel pusher for years. That was coupled with an old-fashioned up-unweight at transition. And in extremely challenging terrain (relative to my then-skills) I would sometimes start a turn by throwing my shoulders around -- but I knew that was wrong even back then.

I realized there was another way at Jackson Hole Steep & Deep when I was 49 years old (14 years ago!).
Our instructor introduced us to the idea of starting a turn by tipping our skis. She did a great job of gently introducing us to the idea that we were doing it all wrong without actually saying that or making us defensive or demoralized. [Part of that was she framed it not as "you guys suck" but rather as "skiing technique has changed".] Another guy in my group who was in his 50's and I started saying to each other, "First, we have to un-learn how to ski."

A four day camp was not nearly long enough to change ingrained movement patterns. But it was enough for me to realize it needed to happen.

My long-term follow-up included a lot of reading and video. I posted video twice on Epicski.com for Movement Analysis. I made a lot of progress in a year, but it took about three to get most of the way there.

The up-unweight would come back at random times for several years, but I think it is gone now. I have been seen to go back even further, to the pre-historic era, and throw my shoulders into a turn when I am tired or intimidated on extremely challenging terrain (relative to my now-skills), but I like to think that happens very infrequently.

 

[markojp]

IMHO, we don't unlearn anything. We learn new movement patterns. We feel odd because we are in fact 'beginners' and not simply relearning or 'fixing'.

 

[Steve]

Yes @markojp my metaphor for many things is that of a lawn with weeds.

Instead of pulling out all the weeds and/or killing them, you make the grass so healthy that it crowds out the weeds.

In trying to get rid of bad habits (skiing or otherwise) it's more effective to do so many good things that there's no time to do the bad ones anymore!

 

[mdf]

IMHO, we don't unlearn anything. We learn new movement patterns. We feel odd because we are in fact 'beginners' and not simply relearning or 'fixing'.

Admittedly "unlearning" is a metaphor, but I think it is a useful one. It acknowledges that we are making big changes, not just polishing around the edges. It also acknowledges that the old is something to be avoided.

You make me wonder -- maybe the old movement patterns are really unlearned. Not through intense short-term suppression, but rather gradually through long-time disuse. Could I still ski with the classic heel pusher movements if I tried?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Back to the Future!

While a wider stance while carving on parabolic skis may be appropriate and even necessary with high G-forces, it can be detrimental for flat ski steered/rotated turns such as in bumps and trees because of the braced balance, back-seated, one-ski outside-ski weight/pressure type skiing it can tolerate or even encourages.

At the end of my last lesson this season on Saturday 3/13th my student said "Thank you, you completely changed my skiing."

He was extremely tired at the end of the 2.5 hour lesson because I completely changed his movement pattern to boots together, legs together, balance on balls of the feet, cuff weight, cuff pressure at initiation of turn, flatter ski foot steering turns on the powder bumps, powder and trees that we had on our mountain that Saturday.

And to really work him hard, we added a functional pole plant to go with it.

I did it by explaining our goal, why what he was doing was not necessarily "bad," but that it was limiting his ability to ski efficiently in certain types of terrain, and that he would have to learn a different and additional movement pattern to ski efficiently in such terrain.

I then did it by demonstrating in front of him and then following him from behind and "being his brain" by yelling at him what do and when until he repeated it enough times to ingrain and develop enough of a kinetic memory to sometimes successfully make the same turns at the right time in the right place on his own.

Anything you could do on the old school long, parallel, straight skis you can also do on the "new" (1996 on) parabolic skis. And we can do more carving more easily on the "new" parabolic skis.

But the new parabolic skis can tolerate and even encourage some techniques which make the flatter ski foot steered or more rotated old school turn technique harder to do.

But with explanation, demonstration and guided practice (i.e., "I am your brain for now. Do as I command."), new movement patterns can succeed and when the student objectively and undeniably personally experiences that the new movement pattern, in fact, does succeed, he or she is often encouraged to remember it and to continue to practice it on his own.

Not always though. I have had a few students who -- after a break from skiing for a few or more years -- revert to their old movement patterns as the lesson continued because once they became comfortable skiing again, they just preferred to do it the way they had improperly self-taught and practiced it on their own and had ingrained it into their movement pattern, in effect demonstrating but not saying "This works for me on easy blues, this is good enough for me to be with the family, I have no need to progress, so "no," but thank you very much..."

 

[JESinstr]

So based on the testimonials above, Here are a couple new things to learn if turning is your goal.
1. learn to balance through the arch and create rotary movement around the arch. With enough practice the word "push" will be eliminated from your skiing vocabulary.
2. If you want to shape your turn, don't wait until the fall line to start. Learn to start the shaping process as early as possible.

 

[markojp]

Admittedly "unlearning" is a metaphor, but I think it is a useful one. It acknowledges that we are making big changes, not just polishing around the edges. It also acknowledges that the old is something to be avoided.

You make me wonder -- maybe the old movement patterns are really unlearned. Not through intense short-term suppression, but rather gradually through long-time disuse. Could I still ski with the classic heel pusher movements if I tried?

I imagine you could. Quite easily, but you know how hard you worked to acquire new movements and how much more effective they are.

 

[vindibona1]

IMHO, we don't unlearn anything. We learn new movement patterns. We feel odd because we are in fact 'beginners' and not simply relearning or 'fixing'.

Kind of splitting hairs over semantics, aren't we? Of course what we do in fact is program in new movement patterns. But in doing so we have to use them to forget to use the others. So while the original movements are still somewhere in our brains, we supress them... so in a way "unlearn" them. You can call it anything you like. The fact is that we have to get to the point where we don't automatically resort to incorrectly learn movement patterns and sequences. And BTW... The secquences are just as important as the movements themselves.

The classic pivot initiation, rotary push off, has been very difficult for me to unlearn in my own skiing, although I pretty much have done it.

That's why I like teaching early weight transfer. Yes as @vindibona1 said in another thread, it can lead to a movement up the hill with the COM at first, but to me that's easier to unlearn then bracing against the equipment at the bottom of the turn, which makes a pivot necessary.

Another great quote from Bob Barnes related to this.

"Almost always, what we tend to describe as "errors" are really solutions--solutions to some real problem that really needs solving. For example because of the loss of turn shape (and the two paths consequently no longer intersecting as you exit the turn), one would need to twist their tails out to the side to start the next turn. And given that need, rotation/rotary pushoff is a highly effective way to accomplish it. So the key to success cannot be to eliminate the solution to a problem--it must be to eliminate the problem itself!"

I'm not sure how to interpret Barnes' quote... but that's ok.

What I find effective, in solving issues of bad habits. is to approach them from the opposite end of the movement spectrum, then transition back to "normal". As an example, while the Whitepass turn is not one turn that you would use often, it is an extremely useful teaching tool. Essentially it has the skier delay the transfer of any pressure to the outside ski until much later in the turn, at first not until the fall line, or sometimes even later. Once that skill is developed, the move is blended back into a "normal" turn by then transferring pressure to the outside, earlier and earlier. It trains the body on so many levels; balance, body position, pressure transfer through flexion/extension, using the turn shape to help generate pressure, release of turns... and that's just naming the major benefits. What I came to realize was the transferring pressure very early to the outside ski was largely unnecessary, but still possible, and just one of the options and variables available to the skier. But in all cases, after practice and repetition over time, it every case I've used it in, totally eliminated rotary push-off.

The other thing that I don't hear discussed any more that used to be in our PSIA manual decades ago was "fulcrum turning". I suppose, based on the kind of bread-and-butter turns we made back in the day, coupled with the available equipment, we relied more heavily, initially, on rotary-pushoff which we ultimately gave up largely for up-unweighted initiations. What most considered to be carved turns then we'd now probably describe as "scarving". I digress. The difference between fulcrum turning then and the "active inside ski" now, is that then we didn't think of actively edging the inside ski and didn't even realize the close mechanical relationship between steering and edging.

[FWIW... the State of Illinois is virtually on lockdown starting tomorrow. We've been doing self-sequestration in my household already for several days. So, what else is there to do except tech-talk... and clean house (my home office is looking SO clean now :0 ?)

 

[cantunamunch]

Yes @markojp my metaphor for many things is that of a lawn with weeds.

Instead of pulling out all the weeds and/or killing them, you make the grass so healthy that it crowds out the weeds.

In trying to get rid of bad habits (skiing or otherwise) it's more effective to do so many good things that there's no time to do the bad ones anymore!

Of course, that begs the question of - what is the skiing equivalent of grass seed companies scouring Germany, Poland and the Baltics for naturally occurring monoculture hot spots? Because that is how they get seeds that can do that.

What is the skiing equivalent of the maximum set of good habits that work with each other?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think of learning a new movement pattern as "overwriting." The old stuff is still there in the brain; it never goes away.

The old pattern will resurface and take over when the skier encounters terrain or conditions that bring on an adrenalin rush.

 

[Henry]

It has been many years since I last saw a PSIA Alpine Technical Manual. Is there still anything in that where the skier must discard certain movements and learn different movements to proceed to become a better skier? Beyond the beginner's wedge turns, what else? Has the wedge christie been dumped? That is a great example of a movement that must be unlearned...and should never be taught to anyone on modern (post 1993) equipment.

The big arm swing taught years ago...is it still taught?...to supposedly bring the body weight forward but actually caused rotation and an early end to counter and loss of edge grip is something else to be unlearned. What else is there?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

IMHO, we don't unlearn anything. We learn new movement patterns. We feel odd because we are in fact 'beginners' and not simply relearning or 'fixing'.

I still believe in teaching "corrective" and "developmental" movement patterns. But I will rethink that.

I tell my -- what we call "Beginner" (as opposed to "First Time") -- students that I am going to teach them to "unlearn" the Wedge -- that we will go from opposing edges to corresponding edges from equal weight to more weight on the outside/downhill ski.

But I agree with markojp on this one. They don't really "unlearn" anything, they just add to their toolbox of techniques.

And I tell them that the ski is a tool. By way of analogy, we may pound in nails with the with the face of a hammer, and then learn to pull out nails with its claw, and then learn to use the claw to pull out really stubburn bent nails with the hammer on its side. But markojp is right, we never forget how to pound with the hammer's face.

Similarly, I tell my students that while ice skates and rollerblades are always on edge (I know to an expert skater that is not technically true), that skis can be on edge or be flat -- which allows different types of turns through different movement patterns.

As I learn and teach more, I truly respect how elegant of a tool today's parabolic skis are. And I explain, demonstrate, and demand that my students use their skis in such a way as they learn to know and respect how many ways that they can use their skis too.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It has been many years since I last saw a PSIA Alpine Technical Manual. Is there still anything in that where the skier must discard certain movements and learn different movements to proceed to become a better skier? Beyond the beginner's wedge turns, what else? Has the wedge christie been dumped? That is a great example of a movement that must be unlearned...and should never be taught to anyone on modern (post 1993) equipment.

The big arm swing taught years ago...is it still taught?...to supposedly bring the body weight forward but actually caused rotation and an early end to counter and loss of edge grip is something else to be unlearned. What else is there?

Wedge turns, wedge christies, open parallel, and dynamic parallel turns are all still there in the most recent Alpine Technical Manual (2015). Hockey stops are mentioned too, and there is some word salad devoted to carved turns. I can't remember if bump skiing is addressed, and don't want to go look right now.

The descriptions of those first four turns are accompanied by the insistence that nothing has to be unlearned as a skier moves from one to the other, because the expert movements are embedded in the beginner turns exactly as they are used in advanced turns. The skier is supposed to extend the new outside leg to release the old turn, flatten the skis, and move the CoM across the skis. This also causes an early weight transfer above the fall line. Then the skier is supposed to rotate the skis to point downhill while they are flat. Oh, and by the way, the skier is to match the inside ski to the outside ski in the parallel turns. Oh, wait, the advanced skier is probably going to put those skis onto their new edges above the fall line, so maybe rotating the skis to point downhill is not supposed to happen in dynamic parallel turns. Can't tell from the manual's wording. Those descriptions are in great need of an editor.

Bringing the downhill/outside arm forward at the end of the turn is not mentioned in this most recent manual.

 

[JESinstr]

And I tell them that the ski is a tool. By way of analogy, we may pound in nails with the with the face of a hammer, and then learn to pull out nails with its claw, and then learn to use the claw to pull out really stubburn bent nails with the hammer on its side. But markojp is right, we never forget how to pound with the hammer's face.

And at the end of the day, when we pack of our skis and boots and head out the parking lot, we never forget the balance mechanics of walking vs the ones we learned/use to ski.

 

[oldschoolskier]

One thing I learned when I was fencing Epee (at a WC Level) was to change a pattern is to repeat the new pattern until it becomes to goto pattern in the when you are tired. Basically it becomes second nature.

Problem is most are not willing to repeat enough to make that happen.

 

[LiquidFeet]

One thing I learned when I was fencing Epee (at a WC Level) was to change a pattern is to repeat the new pattern until it becomes to goto pattern in the when you are tired. Basically it becomes second nature.

Problem is most are not willing to repeat enough to make that happen.

Exactly. It's work. But there are those of us who like such work, yes?

 

[razie]

IMHO, we don't unlearn anything. We learn new movement patterns. We feel odd because we are in fact 'beginners' and not simply relearning or 'fixing'.

That's modern learning theory: we don't change patterns, we learn new ones and eventually learn to replace the old responses with the new ones. Besides choosing a preferred model of "patterns" and training them to create the new wirings, you have to then replace the response to the stimuli and that's achieved by de-composing, re-composing, using external cues etc - it's a lot of coaching theory on this.

Here's a success story. Many of the regulars here may remember the main characte...

Here's an actual video of learning new movement patterns, very foreign at the time (deep flex vs push-off) and you can see for yourself how hard it is to teach even a young pup new tricks:


And here is a few weeks of hard work later, when re-sequenced back into regular skiing:


It's not easy to do, but also not impossible... the next season started strong (with brother picking it up too):


... and getting better, this is with big skis, in a stupid tight course (seriously, Warren?)


And by the end of that season, full control of every range of motion and exaggerating a lot of things he should not exaggerate:


These days is more like this:


and a lot of the basics are there, at a decently high level:


cheers

p.s. and yes, before you ask, he can do short turns too (his first run ever of short turns practice):


p.s2. YMMV

p.s.3. But... what do I know, he was just failed at his level 2 CSCF/ACA course, having been rated "at the beginner level", by some CSIA level 4 examiners, at these categories: pole plants, bending the outside ski, carving the outside ski, using all joints and staying in balance. Barely convinced, just before, that a CSIA course the following week will do him good, he's now not interested in pursuing any kind of accreditation or exam in any instructor organization whatsoever and is a proud founding member of the "Ski School Dropouts". I guess everyone is free to select the members they want to have