Twin Tips Catching Tails

[Chris Johnson]

Hey guys,

looking for some insight if anyone else has had this problem.My daily drivers are a pair of armada twin tips that are probably a bit short for me. They were my first pair of skis and are getting toward the end of their life, but if I dont haveto buy a new pair, I’d rather not.

Today, with 4 inches of fresh on top of variable snow, I kept having my tails get stuck one on top of the other (and occasionally tips as well). I’ve definitely experienced this before, but most of this season has been spent in ski patrol training (mostly sliding sideways vs pointed downhill lol) and today was the first day I got to free ski.
Anyone have experienced this before? Any tips? Boots are also 5 seasons old and I’m thinking maybe theyre just getting a sloppy fit. But my first choice would be its technique that I can fix. Any help is appreciated.
On mobile, please excuse any typos.

 

[rustypouch]

With no other info, seems like a stance and pressure issue. My first thought is that you have your weight too far back when your tails cross.

 

[Superbman]

Whatever the issue is, it's got nothing to do with the skis. My guess is that you have a stem in your turn transitions that gets more pronounced in trickier conditions. Lots of steps to fix this as it's the main dividing line between terminal intermediate and aspiring expert. Get a good instructor at your local hill to look at your skiing (i.e-pay for a private) and see what exercises/ approaches he gives you.

FWIW-I patrol (often) as well, and love twin tips for serious (and very non-serious) patrol work and skiing. AND, I take 3-4 lessons a year with the best ski instructor on my mountain.

 

[Chris V.]

Well, twin tips are pivoty. Especially short ones. There is that.

 

[Coach13]

My 1st thought was that the skis are mounted too far back. It’s more likely technique though.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Today, with 4 inches of fresh on top of variable snow, I kept having my tails get stuck one on top of the other (and occasionally tips as well). I’ve definitely experienced this before, but most of this season has been spent in ski patrol training (mostly sliding sideways vs pointed downhill lol) and today was the first day I got to free ski.
Anyone have experienced this before? Any tips? Boots are also 5 seasons old and I’m thinking maybe theyre just getting a sloppy fit. But my first choice would be its technique that I can fix. Any help is appreciated.
On mobile, please excuse any typos.

@Chris Johnson, I have three questions related to whether the issue is due mostly to technique or not.

1. How wide are those Armadas at the waist, and how long?
2. Do your tips diverge when the tails cross?
3. How do you start your turns?

 

[crgildart]

Only time that happens to me is when I'm skating across the flats on twin tips. Stepping on to the new ski the tail clips the tail of the other ski if I'm not conscious that I'm on twins.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Maybe you just need to tune the skis. And point them down hill. Takes some dedication when the snow gets mushy

 

[Chris Johnson]

@Chris Johnson, I have three questions related to whether the issue is due mostly to technique or not.

1. How wide are those Armadas at the waist, and how long?
2. Do your tips diverge when the tails cross?
3. How do you start your turns?

1. 98 underfoot
2. Yes...some. Thinking on it, they don't go shooting apart, but it's almost like I go to turn again and the tip of one doesn't go where I want and then I realize it's because it's hooked under the other ski at the back.
3. Again, not something I've really thought about how I do it...I'd say I initiate my turns with my new downhill ski, letting the old downhill/ new uphill ski somewhat follow along. This definitely seems like it may be causing an issue. On groomers this season, I've gotten much better at getting both skis on edge and putting more weight on the uphill edge of the uphill ski, but that hasn't translated to off-piste skiing nearly as much.

 

[Chris Johnson]

Whatever the issue is, it's got nothing to do with the skis. My guess is that you have a stem in your turn transitions that gets more pronounced in trickier conditions. Lots of steps to fix this as it's the main dividing line between terminal intermediate and aspiring expert. Get a good instructor at your local hill to look at your skiing (i.e-pay for a private) and see what exercises/ approaches he gives you.

FWIW-I patrol (often) as well, and love twin tips for serious (and very non-serious) patrol work and skiing. AND, I take 3-4 lessons a year with the best ski instructor on my mountain.

I'm taking a shot in the dark that "a stem" is maybe supposed to be "a step" as in I'm picking up my foot during the turn. If so, I don't think that's the issue, but maybe. I got some feedback a couple years ago when trying out for patrol and that was the biggest feedback, so I've been working on it for a couple of seasons. It's more that the skis get a little squirrely when bashing through chopped powder and wander back and forth. It's almost like my feet/ legs can't keep them tracking straight and they get deflected by clumps of snow.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....It's more that the skis get a little squirrely when bashing through chopped powder and wander back and forth. It's almost like my feet/ legs can't keep them tracking straight and they get deflected by clumps of snow.

That sounds exactly like your boots are too big. If the snow pushes your skis around while your feet stay stable, then the boots are definitely at fault. There must be room in them between your feet and the shell - which allows the skis to move while the feet don't. The boots move when the skis move since the bindings have no slack in them. You may not feel this happening in your boots, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You need smaller boots (length, width, or volume-wise, or a combination of those), or new liners, or something to fill those spaces. When the snow pushes the skis, your stable feet should delete the unwanted movement of the boots and since the boots control the skis, this will stop the skis from wobbling around. Even small amounts of compressible space in your liners can allow wobbling skis.

Prepare yourself to spend money on new boots that actually fit. Do your research on what a good fit means first. People here can help you recognize when the boots fit or not (so many people don't know), and when you are working with a competent or masterful bootfitter rather than a shop salesperson.

 

[Bad Bob]

Putting my nickel on your weight on the tail of the inside ski. It will cause your tips to go in all sorts of interesting directions and the inside ski to turn up the hill more.
Combined with a little rotation you will have a classic 'hill hug'. Very worthy of crossing the tails.

 

[Chris Johnson]

That sounds exactly like your boots are too big. If the snow pushes your skis around while your feet stay stable, then the boots are definitely at fault. There must be room in them between your feet and the shell - which allows the skis to move while the feet don't. The boots move when the skis move since the bindings have no slack in them. You may not feel this happening in your boots, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You need smaller boots (length, width, or volume-wise, or a combination of those), or new liners, or something to fill those spaces. When the snow pushes the skis, your stable feet should delete the unwanted movement of the boots and since the boots control the skis, this will stop the skis from wobbling around. Even small amounts of compressible space in your liners can allow wobbling skis.

Prepare yourself to spend money on new boots that actually fit. Do your research on what a good fit means first. People here can help you recognize when the boots fit or not (so many people don't know), and when you are working with a competent or masterful bootfitter rather than a shop salesperson.

Definitely been feeling this way for a while. Boots are 5 seasons old. Starting to wear through the plastic on the soles. Luckily for me, I'm in Boulder, so Larry's it is. Unfortunately for me, stock is probably super low.

 

[Chris Johnson]

Putting my nickel on your weight on the tail of the inside ski. It will cause your tips to go in all sorts of interesting directions and the inside ski to turn up the hill more.
Combined with a little rotation you will have a classic 'hill hug'. Very worthy of crossing the tails.

I assume the fix is to really really drive your weight forward. Any tips on making sure that's the case on the inside ski in particular?

 

[slowrider]

Only time that happens to me is when I'm skating across the flats on twin tips. Stepping on to the new ski the tail clips the tail of the other ski if I'm not conscious that I'm on twins.

I noticed that when wishbone.

 

[Bad Bob]

I assume the fix is to really really drive your weight forward. Any tips on making sure that's the case on the inside ski in particular?

A little bit of increase in upper /lower body separation can make it easier to have more weight on the outside/downhill ski, and that really is where you want most of the weight most of the time. Tons of weight on the tips is pretty old school but you do want pressure on the tongue of the boot, if your ankles aren't flexed you loose a ton of mobility and control.
Saw something up above where you were talking about putting more weight on your inside ski that kind of made me scratch my head (I am old, lots of things make me scratch my head). You do want to engage your inside leg and ski but no so sure about intentionally weighting it other than at transition.
Most important part of all this silliness is have fun. Never loose sight of that.

 

[Superbman]

[/QUOTE]

I'm taking a shot in the dark that "a stem" is maybe supposed to be "a step" as in I'm picking up my foot during the turn. I

Nope, a stem means a stem and it is an ailment in a lot of skiing. You're hanging on to the stance ski too long and not getting off of it before starting the next turn. It can be subtle, but it's the #1 cause of not entering every turn parallel.

 

[Ken_R]

Hey guys,

looking for some insight if anyone else has had this problem.My daily drivers are a pair of armada twin tips that are probably a bit short for me. They were my first pair of skis and are getting toward the end of their life, but if I dont haveto buy a new pair, I’d rather not.

Today, with 4 inches of fresh on top of variable snow, I kept having my tails get stuck one on top of the other (and occasionally tips as well). I’ve definitely experienced this before, but most of this season has been spent in ski patrol training (mostly sliding sideways vs pointed downhill lol) and today was the first day I got to free ski.
Anyone have experienced this before? Any tips? Boots are also 5 seasons old and I’m thinking maybe theyre just getting a sloppy fit. But my first choice would be its technique that I can fix. Any help is appreciated.
On mobile, please excuse any typos.

We need lots more info but the first thing that comes to mind is that most twin tips have a somewhat forward or closer to center mount point that leaves a LOT of tail out the back compared to skis with a more traditional mount given similar lengths.

 

[Chris Johnson]

Nope, a stem means a stem and it is an ailment in a lot of skiing. You're hanging on to the stance ski too long and not getting off of it before starting the next turn. It can be subtle, but it's the #1 cause of not entering every turn parallel.
[/QUOTE]
So you're saying unweight the outside ski earlier?

 

[Superbman]

[/QUOTE]
So you're saying unweight the outside ski earlier?
[/QUOTE]

That's never a bad plan. I just know when my skis squirrel around it's due to not getting off that stance ski smoothly and soon enough.