Training the right muscles for touring (hip flexors concern)

[Noodler]

 

[Primoz]

@Erik Timmerman that's probably more question for physio but still... You can't really compare skimo with classic xc skiing. It's somehow similar but that's about it. Classic xc ski gear is under 1kg (everything included except full water bottle) while pretty light ski touring setup is closer to 5kg. Movement is also different, not to mention you normally carry few kg of backpack (I try to make it light, but I would say in best case it's some 4 or 5kg, with airbag included). And backpack makes really huge difference. Load it with weight (and straps) slightly to one side, and here's reason for your issue.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It was my first time ever using tech bindings, and it felt worse on the very flat first mile. I'm sure there is a technique to learn here. I wasn't sure if I should lift or drag, sounds like drag is it. I was trying Klabo-step part of the time and longer strides other times, but not sure what is right. Barely used the risers at all. Also, it's a pretty heavy touring setup, 189 Fischer Ranger 107s with Marker Duke PT and Fischer Ranger Free boots.

 

[Choucas]

Don’t lift. Klaebo style is not your ticket to success. That’s a lot of weight to be hauling around. Good for short hikes to get to good downhill snow/terrain. A mile on the flat with that set up is not much fun. Use the risers as little as possible. The risers shorten up your stride and tighten up you muscles. If you end up hiking in resort and are restricted to certain pistes, you will end up going straight up steeper sections. The areas need to learn that gentler terrain is the best answer. Lobby your local area to let you access more moderate terrain for climbing up. They probably don’t know.

 

[Noodler]

Don’t lift. Klaebo style is not your ticket to success. That’s a lot of weight to be hauling around. Good for short hikes to get to good downhill snow/terrain. A mile on the flat with that set up is not much fun. Use the risers as little as possible. The risers shorten up your stride and tighten up you muscles. If you end up hiking in resort and are restricted to certain pistes, you will end up going straight up steeper sections. The areas need to learn that gentler terrain is the best answer. Lobby your local area to let you access more moderate terrain for climbing up. They probably don’t know.

Funny you mention the concern with riser use, because for my lap today that was one of the things I tested. This time around I only used the lowest riser and only when I felt it was absolutely necessary. The higher riser clearly reduces stride length. The only thing I start running into is that I'm not in a boot with a releasable cuff. So now I've found where that actually comes into play even with the Daymakers having a bit of reverse ramp when the boot is flat to the platform.

For my lap today I decided to focus on my stride length. My first time out I screwed up by trying to make my stride long to the front (like XC glide strides). The second time, using my lead leg to pull the trailing leg forward worked great, but my stride length suffered. This time I used the same technique, but focused on getting everything I could out of each stride by extending more to the rear of each stride. That really worked well. No hip flexor strain and way less total steps. I still ended up with a 50 minute lap, so I guess that at my current fitness level and with the amount of weight I'm hauling up the hill, I'm not going to improve on that until I get in better shape (stronger and lighter) and find other ways to reduce my uphill load.

BTW - I toured with my 2017 Stockli SR95 skis today and that saved me about 200g per leg (and the skins are probably slightly lighter after re-cutting them for these skis). It was especially hard snow this morning with the Spring refreeze, so it was nice to not be on the Fischer 108s coming down the hill.

 

[Pequenita]

The only thing I start running into is that I'm not in a boot with a releasable cuff.

Are your calves dying today??? (Mine would be)

 

[Noodler]

Are your calves dying today??? (Mine would be)

Actually not at all. I just found the RoM limit where I see that a releasable cuff would have given me just a bit more in the stride. I don't think it would make a huge difference, but in my initial laps I didn't have that observation in my own experience. Now I see how it plays out.

I'm in the exact same boots that are shown in the Daymakers videos. So clearly a lot can be accomplished without going to a boot with tech fittings and a releasable cuff. However, I know that eventually I'll land at that solution. I'm just going to make this work for as long as I believe it's still viable.

My sphere of experience is very, very small right now, but I'm sure some folks are going to open my eyes to the larger limitations of this setup.

 

[Choucas]

I did a 6 day traverse of the Dolomites about 20 years ago in a pair of Lange race boots, Fritschi Diamir bindings and Volkl Snow Rangers. It was not a problem. I don’t think we were in uphill mode much more than a hour to an hour and a half total most days. Rode lifts when we could to access off piste runs or to get to the next valley. Depending on your objectives, you don’t have to have uber-lightweight gear. Just have to work with different parameters.

 

[James]

Ok, I did my first skin Sat night. Went up the resort while the groomers buzzed around. My first 150 yards I was clomping. Then I realized I didn’t unbuckle, nor go into walk mode. So that helped.

Couple questions on technique.

-Should I be Sliding the whole ski forward on the ground or mostly the rear on the ground and the front is lifted a little till the end of stride? Like you concentrste on the back more than the whole ski. Maybe it’s different for ungroomed?

-I noticed on my foot going forward my motion was the tip goes out, abducts, then comes back in. Mostly with my right foot/leg. I tried to concentrate on lifting my thigh more which seemed easier to get the knee to go straight forward. It seemed a little wooden legish, till the most forward part where there’s a knee bend.
Thoughts on eliminating the little tip abduction during stride forward?

It was constant and seemed inefficient. Plus a little annoying because I didn’t want my foot doing that and it was doing it anyway.

Best simple advice I was able to use- don’t lean forward, esp on steeps. Stand up and weight the heel.

I lucked into not using the risers until it got steeper. I couldn’t get thrm out with my pole at first on the Shift. Couldn’t see them. Of course everything is black. I decided not to bother. So much fiddling already, I’ll just go.

So Kastle puts glow in the dark something on their toilet bowl cutout tips for touring skis. Not seeing that as all that valuable. Glow in the dark risers could be good.

 

[Noodler]

Ok, I did my first skin Sat night. Went up the resort while the groomers buzzed around. My first 150 yards I was clomping. Then I realized I didn’t unbuckle, nor go into walk mode. So that helped.

Couple questions on technique.

-Should I be Sliding the whole ski forward on the ground or mostly the rear on the ground and the front is lifted a little till the end of stride? Like you concentrste on the back more than the whole ski. Maybe it’s different for ungroomed?

-I noticed on my foot going forward my motion was the tip goes out, abducts, then comes back in. Mostly with my right foot/leg. I tried to concentrate on lifting my thigh more which seemed easier to get the knee to go straight forward. It seemed a little wooden legish, till the most forward part where there’s a knee bend.
Thoughts on eliminating the little tip abduction during stride forward?

It was constant and seemed inefficient. Plus a little annoying because I didn’t want my foot doing that and it was doing it anyway.

Best simple advice I was able to use- don’t lean forward, esp on steeps. Stand up and weight the heel.

I lucked into not using the risers until it got steeper. I couldn’t get thrm out with my pole at first on the Shift. Couldn’t see them. Of course everything is black. I decided not to bother. So much fiddling already, I’ll just go.

So Kästle puts glow in the dark something on their toilet bowl cutout tips for touring skis. Not seeing that as all that valuable. Glow in the dark risers could be good.

The abduction comment is interesting. I haven't noticed anything like that occurring in my stride, so we'll have to wait for some more experienced folks to chime in.

I've posted a bit about the stride mechanics. On my first time out, since it seemed every video about skinning technique stressed the "no lifting" of the trail leg, I focused on sliding the rear leg forward without lifting... and destroyed my hip flexors. Now, instead of pushing the trail leg forward along the snow, I have been focusing on pulling it along the snow via the power of the leading leg (glutes and hamstring contraction). That changed everything. You might have a slight lift depending on the slope grade, but I wouldn't get hung up on whether the trailing ski is kept perfectly flat along the snow for the entire stride. Of course take my advice with the understanding that I've only done a whopping 3 inbounds laps...

 

[Wooley12]

My 1st "lesson" in skinning was from a guy who did 750k of vert in one season.
Start the back ski moving by leading with your back ski hip.
Slide the ski on the snow, don't lift it off.
10-15 deg skin track is the most effecient.

 

[Noodler]

My 1st "lesson" in skinning was from a guy who did 750k of vert in one season.
Start the back ski moving by leading with your back ski hip.
Slide the ski on the snow, don't lift it off.
10-15 deg skin track is the most effecient.

And here's an example of where the outcome doesn't make it clear what the inputs are. I would think that to "lead with your back ski hip" will require the front leg to use the glutes and hamstring contraction I mentioned previously. How else would you lead with the back hip? I'm assuming that this advice is to help the skier keep the trailing ski on the slope while moving, but it lacks the specifics needed to execute.

 

[Rod9301]

And here's an example of where the outcome doesn't make it clear what the inputs are. I would think that to "lead with your back ski hip" will require the front leg to use the glutes and hamstring contraction I mentioned previously. How else would you lead with the back hip? I'm assuming that this advice is to help the skier keep the trailing ski on the slope while moving, but it lacks the specifics needed to execute.

Leading with the hip also insures that you rotate your hips which will give you a longer stride.

 

[François Pugh]

So I've felt my hip flexors fatigue a bit when on long hikes or MTB rides, but NOTHING like I felt today during my first uphill lap. I did about 1200' vertical in 45 minutes (no idea how that fares), but it was my hip flexors that were just screaming. After I was done and hanging out in my car waiting for the lifts to spin, I was thinking about my workout regimen and realized that I have nothing that truly hits my hip flexors like skinning does. I'm going to see if there's something I can do with my TRX suspension workout system, but does anyone have some advice for what can be done to strengthen these specific muscles when not on the mountain?

Stop letting her do all the work!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Skinned for two hours (after doing a 2hr. skate with my daughter in the AM) and somehow hips felt fine. I was trying to feel like I was pushing forward from the planted leg and bringing the ski with me. Not actually sure if that's what was really happening, but whatever it was seemed to work. We were lost and never really got anywhere though.

 

[Noodler]

Skinned for two hours (after doing a 2hr. skate with my daughter in the AM) and somehow hips felt fine. I was trying to feel like I was pushing forward from the planted leg and bringing the ski with me. Not actually sure if that's what was really happening, but whatever it was seemed to work. We were lost and never really got anywhere though.

Yes, that's it. That's a good way to describe the basis of the movement.

 

[Pequenita]

I think the main point with the "don't lift your skis" advice is that you're not stomping around like on snowshoes. It might be something that people who aren't used to having skis on their feet are more inclined to do. The times that I've skinned behind resort snowboarders-turned-b/c-skiers, or in general newer skiers, they clomp around like they have clown shoes on.

 

[Rod9301]

When you skin on something steeper than flat, the first movement from the uphill ski is to straighten the leg. Then you move the other ski forward.
Almost no hip flexor involved, all butt muscles.

 

[Noodler]

I think the main point with the "don't lift your skis" advice is that you're not stomping around like on snowshoes. It might be something that people who aren't used to having skis on their feet are more inclined to do. The times that I've skinned behind resort snowboarders-turned-b/c-skiers, or in general newer skiers, they clomp around like they have clown shoes on.

Two guys in Dynafit boots and Shift bindings passed me on my lap this morning. Both of them lifted their rear ski at least 6" into the air on every stride. Their skinning technique sucked, but they had a significant weight advantage. My takeaway is that when I do get on a lighter weight setup, I'm gonna fly...

 

[Rod9301]

Two guys in Dynafit boots and Shift bindings passed me on my lap this morning. Both of them lifted their rear ski at least 6" into the air on every stride. Their skinning technique sucked, but they had a significant weight advantage. My takeaway is that when I do get on a lighter weight setup, I'm gonna fly...

Just don't get shift bindings