Toppling and balance.

[stevo]

Interesting. How are you doing that without pushing, throwing, diving, etc.?

my question was for razie, to explain what he means by "releasing the feet". If you want to answer that question I will respond so what you are asking. this leads to an entirely different discussion about what it means to "release" which we will get at least several different answers...and I think releasing the ski edges and releasing the CoM are two different things really.. but anyway, if you think it through more you will realize its very well possible to release your CoM from the inside of the old turn without having to throw it or push it. You have momentum. you don't have to release your ski edges first. In fact, maintaining edge engagement helps to deliver ground reaction forces which can contribute to a more effective CoM release and crossover...without throwing or pushing.

I thought it was pretty much all anyone talks about on here.

Ok, it's not what I talk about. I almost never use a cross under style. Perhaps it's happening a bit in some bumps. I don't see it as being relevant in the discussion about the word "topple" which this thread has already become ridiculously long lamenting over the point....but in a cross under...your CoM basically stalls and the legs move under you. There is no toppling. So it's really not part of this discussion at all.

or is it?

I guess in a cross under someone may need to be told to topple more if their CoM is too stalled out. But my preference in that situation is to talk about using softer legs and allowing the CoM to move across the path of the skis just a little bit, even as cross under is happening(or perhaps even instead of)...Its very unlikely for me to actually use the word "topple" but I might if someone is truly blocked from allowing their CoM to crossover.

well anyway, me personally...I'm not talking about cross under here...at all...and hardly ever do in general. Also I much prefer to not do it in my own skiing.

 

[Zirbl]

if you think it through more you will realize its very well possible to release your CoM from the inside of the old turn without having to throw it or push it.

Sure, I was asking how you go about it yourself. Apologies if I missed your post on that

 

[stevo]

Sure, I was asking how you go about it yourself. Apologies if I missed your post on that

how I go about releasing the CoM from the inside of the turn? that is simply about relaxing/softening your old outside leg. You have momentum, and if your skis are still engaged in particular, your CoM will crossover quite readily. The challenge is not how to get it to crossover. the Challenge is how to do it without "toppling" hehehe. without losing balance to the new inside. That is where balance management comes into play.

 

[Zirbl]

how I go about releasing the CoM from the inside of the turn? that is simply about relaxing/softening your old outside leg. You have momentum, and if your skis are still engaged in particular, your CoM will crossover quite readily. The challenge is not how to get it to crossover. the Challenge is how to do it without "toppling" hehehe. without losing balance to the new inside. That is where balance management comes into play.

That doesn't release the edges?

 

[stevo]

Of course your edges will eventually release! The COM needs to be released from the insside of the old turn and this will consequently also cause the edges to gradually be released. Both are desirable outcomes.

 

[razie]

my question was for razie, to explain what he means by "releasing the feet".

it's not me, it's the USSA but it's easy in theory - let the hips and legs lag behind the upper body moving into the new turn. Basically you relax the core more than the legs - ergo, the hips and legs are still engaged some, but the torso starts to move into the new turn and later eventually the legs and feet release too. that's the theory at least. It's a tactical choice say in a GS course - some may use something not similar, but related and call it "weighted release" if that rings a bell.

my point was that it's a matter of definitions. some associate toppling with getting out of balance or falling... (that is indeed the literal definition of the term "cause to become unsteady and fall.") but when you run or skate, don't you also push the torso out of static balance until you catch it with the next foot? What would be the differnce? Does running qualify as "dynamic balance" ?

 

[stevo]

it's not me, it's the USSA but it's easy in theory - let the hips and legs lag behind the upper body moving into the new turn.

That is releasing the com not the feet. You still haven’t answered the question. and I agree with that approach by the way

Basically you relax the core more than the legs - ergo, the hips and legs are still engaged some,

think that through some more

but the torso starts to move into the new turn and later eventually the legs and feet release too.

I asked you how it can be possible to release the feet first or perhaps exclusively. You answered completely opposite how to release the com. According to me, releasing the com is always a priority. I ask you again, when is the case of releasing the feet only or first and how is that done.

that's the theory at least. It's a tactical choice say in a GS course - some may use something not similar, but related and call it "weighted release" if that rings a bell.

I don’t think it’s a unique tactical choice. It’s the baseline.

my point was that it's a matter of definitions. some associate toppling with getting out of balance or falling... (that is indeed the literal definition of the term "cause to become unsteady and fall.") but when you run or skate, don't you also push the torso out of static balance until you catch it with the next foot? What would be the differnce? Does running qualify as "dynamic balance" ?

And I agree definitions matter. That is why using the word topple is a poor choice when you get into the nuance of finer balance control through transition

I hate responding to these from iPhone

 

[stevo]

my point was that it's a matter of definitions. some associate toppling with getting out of balance or falling... (that is indeed the literal definition of the term "cause to become unsteady and fall.") but when you run or skate, don't you also push the torso out of static balance until you catch it with the next foot? What would be the differnce? Does running qualify as "dynamic balance" ?

You updated your post after I responded....which is fine...but I have to also respond to the point that the definition of balance or imbalance to mean "usnteadying and falling". I do not agree, balance is much more refined than that. In dynamic activities such as skiing you can be falling away from balance....ie...out of balance...and never fall down because the turning activities can rescue us and bring us back closer to balance eventually. but still if you went through a period of imbalance in the turn...falling a way from balance...then you will have been losing edge engagement during that period of the turn. this can be a little or a lot....but it is not "balance" when it happens. it is not dynamic balance to be falling away from it. Dynamic balance is to retain your balance even when all the externals are changing.

But in skiing, falling down or not is not a measure of true balance. yes if you fall down its likely you were out of balance, but if you didn't fall down, you still might have been out of balance, you just may have rescued yourself later in the turn. But while you were out of balance, your edge engagement was probably compromised. And it will be compromised again for a bit when you catch yourself too.

Go back and read my earlier posts...I have already said that some people seem to feel that going in and out of balance dynamically means dynamic balance. But I disagree with that notion. Going in and out of balance is what we can call inconsistent balance, erratic balance, etc. dynamic balance is when you are moving around and the external factors are changing, perhaps even radically and dynamically...and yet you retain balance at every moment.

when it is not possible to retain dynamic balance at every moment because the externals are changing too rapidly then the best we can do is to stay as close to a state of balance as we can make happen. we can manage it. when you deliberately move away from it, then you are not skiing in dynamic balance...you are in fact destroying dynamic balance at that time.

 

[razie]

here's how releasing the com works, frame by frame:


and here's how you release the feet, frame by frame:


hint: you relax the legs and feet and even lift them off the snow and they will release NOT after the COM moves, but before or at the same time. In essence, the COM moves as a result of the legs no longer being in the way.

Go back and read my earlier posts...I have already said that some people seem to feel that going in and out of balance dynamically means dynamic balance. But I disagree with that notion. Going in and out of balance is what we can call inconsistent balance, erratic balance, etc. dynamic balance is when you are moving around and the external factors are changing, perhaps even radically and dynamically...and yet you retain balance at every moment.

if you have an axe to grind, keep grinding it - I already said I don't like toppling either. But now you're saying that when we run we're not moving? i.e. we're not "moving around and the external factors are changing" ? how do you move around? I do it by walking, i.e. pushing my body in the direction I want to move in and then catching it with the other foot. Do you just moon walk everywhere?

Arguing made-up definitions won't really get us anywhere

Here's a Google offering:

In static balance the body remains stationary, and the centre of mass is over the base of support. This type of balance is important when doing activities such as squatting or standing on one leg. Dynamic balance is required when your body is in motion and most mimics real life situations, such as walking. Having good dynamic balance is essential in your body’s ability to react to sudden changes in your balance.

 

[stevo]

I'm trying to get out the door to go ski now, sorry will have to review the videos later.

 

[razie]

I'm trying to get out the door to go ski now, sorry will have to review the videos later.

enough with the skiing, seriously! arguing over how it's done it is better . well, at least here, I don't even think there is much snow left

 

[JESinstr]

Which Pole is "toppling"? In both cases the COM of the pole is moving.
Pole A?
Pole B?
Both?

If you choose A or B, how can you reconcile that toppling should be used as common transitional term?.

If you choose both, how can you determine which would correspond to a Cross over or Cross under transition and where is there a common lateral force?

What role does intended turn radius, velocity, the intensity of the Centripetal force and relationship to the fall line play in terms of transitional mechanics?

Bonus question: What role does the wind play in pushing your upper mass down the hill?

 

[Zirbl]

Of course your edges will eventually release! The COM needs to be released from the insside of the old turn and this will consequently also cause the edges to gradually be released. Both are desirable outcomes.

What I meant was doesn't relaxing the old outside leg release the edge, before or at the same time as the com?
Or are you talking about letting the skis carve up and under the com?

 

[razie]

Which Pole is "toppling"? In both cases the COM of the pole is moving.
Pole A?
Pole B?
Both?

If you choose A or B, how can you reconcile that toppling should be used as common transitional term?.

If you choose both, how can you determine which would correspond to a Cross over or Cross under transition and where is there a common lateral force?

What role does intended turn radius, velocity, the intensity of the Centripetal force and relationship to the fall line play in terms of transitional mechanics?

Bonus question: What role does the wind play in pushing your upper mass down the hill?


View attachment 228314

I don't know what to say, poles are supposed to be planted every now and then but planting the poles like that seems like over-engineering it...

 

[dj61]

I'm trying to get out the door to go ski now, sorry will have to review the videos later.

You don’t have to. Please don’t.

 

[cantunamunch]

You don’t have to. Please don’t.

Eh, it's starting to get a bit useful, tbh. Like I want to know when after transition is hip angulation halal to start using?

 

[JESinstr]

Answer is in the DIRT

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Well, I feel like we've all learned a lot about skiing and also running in the past 24 hours. It's been very educational. I drew up a new diagram to capture everyone's thoughts – as you can see the skier is very angulated, which is perfect.

 

[stevo]

and here's how you release the feet, frame by frame:

I think that video agrees with what I suggested earlier about crossunder style transition....and basically there is no toppling or concern about toppling in that case, the CoM is not moving across, the skis are crossing under....and kind of not relevant to this discussion about the word "toppling". Toppling is a cross-over concern. I agree with you that is a good example of only the feet being released, but I feel its not relevant regarding toppling, I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

And as a side note, me personally I use primarily cross-over transition technique and consider it preferable whenever possible. Cross-under happens occasionally and rarely only in cases where for some reason I don't have enough time or I edged hard, getting some rebound; or did a poor job of relaxing/softening my outside leg to release my CoM from the old turn. By the way, truly relaxing and softening the old outside leg should not cause cross-under. In fact cross under requires some rebound and retraction. Complete relaxation and softening of the outside leg will simply allow the CoM to crossover the skis rather then the other way around. Retraction and Relaxation are not the same thing.

but before or at the same time. In essence, the COM moves as a result of the legs no longer being in the way.

Don't agree. The CoM is very stalled compared to cross-over.

I already said I don't like toppling either.

glad to hear

But now you're saying that when we run we're not moving?

can you please provide the quote where i said that?

Here's a Google offering:

In static balance the body remains stationary, and the centre of mass is over the base of support. This type of balance is important when doing activities such as squatting or standing on one leg. Dynamic balance is required when your body is in motion and most mimics real life situations, such as walking. Having good dynamic balance is essential in your body’s ability to react to sudden changes in your balance.

Sure, sounds great, but still balance is balance. If you are out of balance you are out of balance. the fact that you are moving just makes it dynamic. you can dynamically move, walk, run, ski and many other things without going out of balance. You can alternatively go in and out of balance, which is just that...going in and out of balance. Going in and out of balance is not "dynamic balance", that is "part time" balance. And sure we do many activities in part time balance. I have covered this already above, not sure if you read it or not, and maybe we simply don't agree about what it means to be in dynamic balance, that's fine too...but if you are out of balance for part of the turn, that is simply NOT in balance of any kind including dynamic balance...particularly when ski performance will likely be compromised. You can call whatever you want as "dynamic balance", it starts to become a word salad debate at some point; but if your definition of dynamic balance is to go in and out of balance intentionally, then that is too low of a bar to set for high quality skiing, balance in skiing needs to be better then that. Whatever word choice you want to use for that.

If you are able to adjust what you are doing so that as you move and the external forces are changing, etc..and you are able at each moment to remain in balance, or close to it...that would be something more like dynamic balance. If you push yourself out of balance because you feel you have to...then you will have to recover your balance back later..and in between..you will be out of balance. Pushing yourself into the turn, toppling yourself into the turn, these things compromise your balance. Being in balance is not an on or off switch. You can be closer to it or further from it. Toppling and pushing, take you away from it. At some point if someone is deliberately making balance-destroying movements, I will have to say that they are not in good dynamic balance according to my definition of what that word means.

 

[stevo]

What I meant was doesn't relaxing the old outside leg release the edge, before or at the same time as the com?
Or are you talking about letting the skis carve up and under the com?

its an interesting question, if you are sincere.. I think this should be obvious if you spend a little time thinking about it, but since you are asking me I will answer. When you you relax your outside leg, your CoM will be allowed to crossover your skis, which causes the skis to begin to roll off of their edge. The CoM moves immediately..the untipping of the edges by virtue of the fact that CoM is moving across does not immediately release the edges, certainly not completely. They will continue to carve fully or partially to some degree. Only as they get closer to being flat on the snow will they truly release the edges. and because at the same time you are reducing the turn radius as the skis untip off of their edge angle, the edges continue to hold quite well all the way up to nearly flat on the snow. If they didn't you would wash out your tails. Cleanly carved skis have no wash out between edge changes...the edge holds and doesn't release until they are flat and your CoM is pretty much half way through the crossover by then.

And it's a good thing that your edges are still engaged and not released, even as your CoM is in the process of trying to crossover. Because the edges are still engaged this provides a fulcrum point so that the CoM which is carrying momentum will cross over the skis. If your tails wash out, then your CoM stops crossing over and possibly falls down to the inside.

As I said earlier..the challenge is not getting the CoM to crossover. That can be done very easily. What is not so easy is to maintain optimal balance while doing it. If you allow this crossover to become a "toppling" sensation, you are probably already out of balance. Balance management needs to be utilized to avoid that problem. If you "topple" you are falling away from the edge.

Alternatively if you push, you will momentarily have pressure on that ski because of the pushing itself, but sadly..the pushing will push your CoM even further away from the edge, accelerating it away even; and further away from balance and pressure ultimately..you will have a pressure vacuum that occurs through the apex...and then an explosion of catch-up recovery pressure just after the apex. All of that kind of thing happens from poor balance management. Poor balance management is a result of toppling and pushing the CoM into the inside.