Utah Toll proposal under discussion to reduce traffic in Utah's Cottonwood Canyons.

[Daniel]

The proposed toll of $20 to $30 per day seems a little low to me, if the objective is to change canyon user's behavior in regard to one's method of transport.

Toll proposal under discussion to reduce traffic in Utah's Cottonwood Canyons

Inside the Utah Department of Transportation’s Little Cottonwood Canyon Environmental Impact Statement lies a proposal to implement a toll in Little and Big Cot

kutv.com

 

[Bill Miles]

Isn't there a parable about geese and golden eggs?

 

[TheArchitect]

It would probabl help to reduce the locals going up-canyon but won't impact many of the tourists. The toll would just be built into the travel expenses and is relatively small in comparison to the total trip cost.

 

[tromano]

The article doesn't say what behavior they want to change.

 

[fatbob]

What does this do to Alta's pay parking move?

 

[cantunamunch]

Meh, another offensive in the gondi wars.

Isn't there a parable about geese and golden eggs?

The goose is on its last legs and we need to charge Faberge prices while it lives?

 

[scott43]

Isn't there a parable about geese and golden eggs?

Leaf tickets down front are like $1500 a seat. You think they'd eventually be the goose. But God damn they sell every ticket every game. You don't know how bad something is sometimes until you break it...

 

[Wasatchman]

I think a $20-30 toll could have a meaningful impact on traffic. Of course the bus system needs some dramatic investment to go along with this. Kind of crazy and infuriating that UDOT is cutting bus schedules and then less than a week later talking about tolling to manage traffic without acknowledging they need to dramatically improve bus service and infrastructure.

 

[Daniel]

It would probabl help to reduce the locals going up-canyon but won't impact many of the tourists. The toll would just be built into the travel expenses and is relatively small in comparison to the total trip cost.

I doubt a $20 to $30 per day toll is going to discourage a local BCC/LCC rider/skier from hitting the slopes on a powder day, especially given the long history of what many do to beat the canyon closure for control work and the strategies they employ to remain hidden in the canyons until daybreak or the multitudes who rise early to park as close to the closed canyon gates as possible in the ever-lengthening line-up while sleeping, eating, surfing the Web, etc. for several hours. Other less ambitious locals will only give up their effort to get up the canyons if the line-up to do so extends x number of miles from the mouth and their vehicle hasn't made any meaningful progress for x number of hours or fractions of hours (and some of them just relocate to the other canyon line-up if they think their prospects are better there).

The article doesn't say what behavior they want to change.

From the second paragraph of the article: "The goal would be to stabilize and reduce traffic volumes by 30% through travel alternatives." The behavior UDOT wants to change is reducing the number of vehicles in BCC and LCC on the ~50 highest-usage days of the season by moving canyon users to ski buses or the gondola (or any of the other original proposals that had been under consideration, such as a cog-railroad).

What does this do to Alta's pay parking move?

I'm quite sure it does nothing because Alta will almost assuredly fill up its carparks on the 50 highest-usage days of the season in LCC. The local trend in parking fees is to add days of the week that said fee is applicable to and extend the number of weeks the program is in effect (Alta), increase the cost of a season parking pass (Solitude and Snowbird), increase the number of parking spots a season parking pass is required for (Snowbird), and increase the cost of a daily parking pass (Solitude). Given the huge increase in visitation to CC resorts, I don't see paid parking going away but instead increasing in all the aforementioned ways.

 

[tromano]

From the second paragraph of the article: "The goal would be to stabilize and reduce traffic volumes by 30% through travel alternatives." The behavior UDOT wants to change is reducing the number of vehicles in BCC and LCC on the ~50 highest-usage days of the season by moving canyon users to ski buses or the gondola (or any of the other original proposals that had been under consideration, such as a cog-railroad).

Thanks. However the gondola only applies to LCC. And I had thought the other proposals were off the table. Wonder what alternatives they have planned for BCC, beyond the current busses.

 

[Wasatchman]

@Daniel the toll may or may not discourage the locals on an epic powder day, but I could definitely see it impacting traffic otherwise. And if the UDOT toll changed behavior enough to regularly take the bus, there is a chance some of those would choose to continue to do so on pow days as it becomes part of their normal routine.

But the bus system has got to improve. More busses and more parking are desperately needed.

 

[Nathanvg]

But the bus system has got to improve. More busses and more parking are desperately needed.

This is 100% right. I wish they would find a way to use the tolling to pay for the buses. The bus route limitations are primarily staffing per UTA. Why not use the toll cash to pay a driver 2x. I bet guys would line up to take that bonus shift. At $30 per car, every 8 cars would pay for a bus that holds about 50 people. Such funding would literally fund hundreds of additional buses each busy day (you probably wouldn't need nearly that many)

So with bus funding solved, the other risk is tons of cars willingly pay $30 resulting in horrible traffic. You could solve this problem by raising the toll until demand decreases, but I'd advocate for an online lottery system. (for each high demand day) No need to price gouge. Losing the lottery is not a big deal because of great bus service.

 

[Après Skier]

Once again it’s amateur hour in the Wasach…. the city planners are either grasping at straws or they lack the political will to implement meaningful infrastructure projects. In any case, this is been going on for years like a slow motion inbred rodeo. Nothing to see here, this is all normal, nothing to see here. Don’t pay any mind to other parts of the world where millions can enjoy car free trips moving between resorts in comfort and style.

We won’t have any meaningful infrastructure projects. The city planners and politicians completely lack inspiration, And we’ll still be wasting hours snaking up and down canyons either in a private vehicle or the discomfort bus.

 

[tromano]

This is 100% right. I wish they would find a way to use the tolling to pay for the buses. The bus route limitations are primarily staffing per UTA. Why not use the toll cash to pay a driver 2x. I bet guys would line up to take that bonus shift. At $30 per car, every 8 cars would pay for a bus that holds about 50 people. Such funding would literally fund hundreds of additional buses each busy day (you probably wouldn't need nearly that many)

So with bus funding solved, the other risk is tons of cars willingly pay $30 resulting in horrible traffic. You could solve this problem by raising the toll until demand decreases, but I'd advocate for an online lottery system. (for each high demand day) No need to price gouge. Losing the lottery is not a big deal because of great bus service.

Public utility model has some limitations including lack of flexibility in operations. If they scale operations so that a typical bus is only full at peak times, peak days, then most busses will be near empty much of the time.

 

[cantunamunch]

Public utility model has some limitations including lack of flexibility in operations. If they scale operations so that a typical bus is only full at peak times, peak days, then most busses will be near empty much of the time.

Oh, just wait until they throw an online bus reservation system and sliding fare schedules at that problem.

 

[tromano]

Oh, just wait until they throw an online bus reservation system and sliding fare schedules at that problem.

Because online reservations fix everything.

 

[cantunamunch]

Because online reservations fix everything.

Exactly, the potential for 'completely justified' tail chasing in the disservice of the public is off the charts on this one.

 

[Nathanvg]

Public utility model has some limitations including lack of flexibility in operations. If they scale operations so that a typical bus is only full at peak times, peak days, then most busses will be near empty much of the time.

Right scaling up daily would be a huge waste since demand is high but only on a few days. It has to be a short-notice staff increase model. Government is not usually good at short-notice models but they figure it out with snowplows so there is at least some hope.

 

[Lorenzzo]

It's tiresome hearing about these proposals every year that almost never come to fruituion or when they do don't solve the problem when the only real solution is to drop people from helicopters and see who survives.

 

[mdf]

but they figure it out with snowplows

Here in Massachusetts it seems to be a nailbiter every year.
There are signs up on many roads advertising "Mass DPW Needs Plows! Call xxx-xxx-xxxx"