• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Coach13

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
2,091
Location
No. VA
I know we have at least a few physicians who frequent here. This is a pretty neat article about a doctor who wanted to combine medicine with his love of skiing.


I’m sure there are many others that have done something similar. I’d love to hear their stories if anyone knows of them.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,980
They won’t work at Vail. They don’t allow doctors to touch clients.
 

Itinerant skier

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Posts
466
I know a number of physicians, nurses and even one respiratory therapist / paramedic who have worked at mountain clinics that allowed them to ski during slow times. It only works when there's enough staff to cover and hold down the fort until you get back. Probably wouldn't work in a smaller clinic with perhaps one nurse and one physician. I wonder if there is a difference between clinics owned by the resort, or those owned by a local hospital/ health system that are sited at the resort.

My own nursing job allows me to take call from the slopes provided the mountain is close enough to the airport we happen to be parked at to make a 2 hour wheels up when called. There's also the understanding that should I injure myself to the point that I can't take a call, the practice will end immediately.

I'm curious about the bit in the article about how he responds to emergencies with the ski patrol. Is he doing that as a patroller who is also a physician? Are his actions on -mountain billable procedures? I knew a doc years back who was on a small volunteer patrol and while they were obviously looked to for their medical expertise, they were generally limited to doing the same procedures as other patrollers for liability reasons.
 

Prosper

This is the way.
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
1,124
Location
Ken Caryl, CO
They won’t work at Vail. They don’t allow doctors to touch clients.
I talked to a cardiologist at Vail a couple of weeks ago. He was in an official Vail all back patrol uniform, had an official name tag and said he was a patrol medical consultant. He mentioned that there are usually about 6 physicians on the mountain on a typically weekend day. He said the physicians carry and administer the opioid pain medications and start IVs. They’re also called in the more serious medical cases. It sure sounded like he provided direct patient care and was very hands on.
 

Itinerant skier

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Posts
466
He said the physicians carry and administer the opioid pain medications and start IVs. They’re also called in the more serious medical cases. It sure sounded like he provided direct patient care and was very hands on.

Thanks for the info there. Sounds like they have a full ALS system on mountain. I imagine they get a fair amount of practice at a resort that large. That's a good thing. In my experience, the last person you want starting your IV is a physician. :)
 

Prosper

This is the way.
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
1,124
Location
Ken Caryl, CO
In my experience, the last person you want starting your IV is a physician. :)
There’s definitely some truth to that. It’s even harder in a winter environment when the patient’s veins are completely clamped down and the doctor’s hands are cold. Seems a bit crazy but during residency when the most experienced ER and ICU nurses couldn’t get IV access they called the poor residents to try. After a few tries, we’d give up and start a subclavian line or other central access. That was a really long time ago.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,980
I talked to a cardiologist at Vail a couple of weeks ago. He was in an official Vail all back patrol uniform, had an official name tag and said he was a patrol medical consultant. He mentioned that there are usually about 6 physicians on the mountain on a typically weekend day. He said the physicians carry and administer the opioid pain medications and start IVs. They’re also called in the more serious medical cases. It sure sounded like he provided direct patient care and was very hands on.
Interesting. Not at our mt. Almost all left. Nurses too. They were all volunteers. (Wkend was all volunteer except supervisors) Only training are they allowed to do. Can’t touch people.
However, even when they were there, and before Vail, they didn’t give medications. First aid didn’t even give ibuprofen. Ambulance only did meds. VT vs CO laws?, lawsuits?
 

trailtrimmer

Stuck in the Flatlands
Skier
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Posts
1,138
Location
Michigan
I talked to a cardiologist at Vail a couple of weeks ago. He was in an official Vail all back patrol uniform, had an official name tag and said he was a patrol medical consultant. He mentioned that there are usually about 6 physicians on the mountain on a typically weekend day. He said the physicians carry and administer the opioid pain medications and start IVs. They’re also called in the more serious medical cases. It sure sounded like he provided direct patient care and was very hands on.

There is a doctor on both Whistler and Blackcomb mountains at all times during operation as well. I wouldn't be surprised if there may be a difference between paid vs volunteer patrol.
 

Wilhelmson

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
4,348
Interesting. Not at our mt. Almost all left. Nurses too. They were all volunteers. (Wkend was all volunteer except supervisors) Only training are they allowed to do. Can’t touch people.
However, even when they were there, and before Vail, they didn’t give medications. First aid didn’t even give ibuprofen. Ambulance only did meds. VT vs CO laws?, lawsuits?

Any medical procedure in new england needs to be billed out at least $1,000/ hour. Even that ibu will cost you a mint by the time the red tape is done with. But we can drive to the best hospitals in 40 minutes so thats good.
 

FlyingAce

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 22, 2019
Posts
499
Location
Taos, NM
Interesting idea but his training is in Ophthalmology and Family Medicine so he doesn’t have a license to practice emergency medicine on the mountain. It seems like his clinic is a regular medical office located in a ski town, but with an emergency department capable of doing xrays/imaging before transfering serious patients to a hospital that he is affiliated with. This is only possible because he mentioned his wife as being an ER doctor.
All doctors specialize in something and their license to practice is specific to that specialty. They cannot cross fields (i.e. Family medicine to ER) just like that by opening up a practice by the mountain or volunteering. If anything goes wrong, they will lose their license.
My husband is a doctor, but in a very specialized field. He did spend time in the ER during his training but that’s about it. He is not allowed to touch/treat anyone outside of the scope of his specialty. We once witnessed a terrible accident on the slope and he could tell the skier had a broken arm and concussion. We called patrol to call medics. When they arrived, all my husband could do was to tell them about the broken arm and concussion so they could get him to the ER asap. He could do nothing more even if he wanted to.
It’ll be interesting to know if any doctors, not in family/sports/emergency medicine, has done this and how they did it. Who took care of the licensing and liability insurance, and are they covered by the resort that hired/allowed them to volunteer?
 

Carolinacub

Yes thats a Cubs hat I'm wearing
Skier
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
794
Location
Asheville NC
In the volunteer world of ski patrolling a medical professional is only allowed to respond to emergencies to the level of OEC training. In the paid patroller world you are allowed to respond to the level of your individual training.
For example if you're a volunteer patroller who happens to be a paramedic and someone needed an IV started you couldn't start the IV and still be covered for liability since you are performing a duty outside the scope of NSP training.
I spotted a pretty good article a while back about responding to an emergency while off duty that really opened my eyes about what I should and shouldn't do.
 

rocdoc

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Posts
127
Location
Washington, DC area
Interesting thread. The options and actions people actually take are certainly colored by laws and culture. I trained in Europe, and I think all of us who came to practice in the US had a bit of a culture shock when it comes to the liability and our legal environment. However, I have decided pretty early on that looking over my shoulder and practicing medicine where I primarily look to cover my behind legally is not feasible, outside of some common sense precautions. So if I'm somewhere, including on a slope, and someone is in need of assistance, and I know it's within my competence to provide it, I will help and worry about what it exposes me to later. At the end of the day, I have to believe (perhaps naively) that doing the right thing is still the least risky approach. And I'm not as naive as this may make me sound, I have seen colleagues' careers upended by frivolous law suits.
I do try to remember "primum non nocere". In the couple of instances where I intervened while off duty I stepped away once EMT arrived on the scene, as their training for emergency response exceeds mine.
 
Last edited:

Carolinacub

Yes thats a Cubs hat I'm wearing
Skier
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
794
Location
Asheville NC
someone is in need of assistance, and I know it's within my competence to provide it
I think the key word here is competence, If the treatment that you provide someone is within the scope of the training that you have then IMHO you are then covered by the good Samaritan rules. It's when you exceed those parameters that you run into issues.
If I come across a car accident where someone has a sucking chest wound I'm more than qualified to render assistance and if god forbid the individual dies then I'm protected. But if I come across an accident and the person requires a tracheotomy then that's a whole different story. If I perform that procedure and the patient dies then I'm no longer protected because I performed a procedure outside my scope of training.
 
Thread Starter
TS
C

Coach13

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
2,091
Location
No. VA
I think the key word here is competence, If the treatment that you provide someone is within the scope of the training that you have then IMHO you are then covered by the good Samaritan rules. It's when you exceed those parameters that you run into issues.
If I come across a car accident where someone has a sucking chest wound I'm more than qualified to render assistance and if god forbid the individual dies then I'm protected. But if I come across an accident and the person requires a tracheotomy then that's a whole different story. If I perform that procedure and the patient dies then I'm no longer protected because I performed a procedure outside my scope of training.

One of the doctors here can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure licensed physicians EMT’s, Paramedics etc are not covered by the good samaritan law. I know career Paramedics who gave up their certifications after retiring for just this very reason. So they could help someone in need and be covered as a good samaritan.
 

Prosper

This is the way.
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
1,124
Location
Ken Caryl, CO
One of the doctors here can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure licensed physicians EMT’s, Paramedics etc are not covered by the good samaritan law. I know career Paramedics who gave up their certifications after retiring for just this very reason. So they could help someone in need and be covered as a good samaritan.
As I understand it, good Samaritan laws vary a little by state but all states have one on the books. In general the law protects anyone, including physicians and others with medical training from legal liability provided they acted in good faith to help some with an emergency medical need and did not expect or request any compensation. Unless there is a previous physician-patient relationship, a physician can not be held liable for providing care in this type of situation. There is no stipulation concerning providing care within one’s training or typical practice. If someone in an emergency situation needs potentially life saving care I think most physicians and 1st responders are going to do anything and everything possible to provide that care. It would be completely illogical to create a law that protects those with no medical knowledge in an emergency situation and exclude those who are the best equipped to help.
 

Mel

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Posts
601
Interesting topic. I know a number of my colleagues here in Canada (mainly ER or trauma MDs) volunteer with ski patrol in exchange for a free pass. Usually there's an MD on mountain (at bigger hills) on the weekends, not necessarily on the weekdays. The nearest small hospital is 30-60 minutes away from the ski hills, and the nearest trauma centre is another 1.5 hours away by road. The volunteer MDs wear patrol uniforms and have a "Dr. J. Doe" nametag, so clearly identified as a doctor. From what I understand, you do not bill anything as you're volunteering and being "compensated" with employee perks already.

Canada is obviously different than the US when it comes to liability, so YMMV. CMPA, the main provider of MD liability insurance in Canada, has a short article about providing medical care to athletes that is tangentionally related here Their article states "Physicians may be asked to provide medical coverage at sporting events as a medical director, as part of the medical staff, or as a volunteer. In most cases, the standard of care, responsibilities, and potential liabilities are similar as when doctors provide care to any athlete, even when the work is voluntary. As well, doctors working at events outside their provinces should ensure their licensure is appropriate for that location." I would interpret that to mean that as long as you're working within your scope of practice and to the accepted standard of care for that practice, your personal liability insurance would likely cover you. I would say that any medical professional volunteering should ensure valid personal liability coverage and never ever ever rely on the mountain or resort's insurance.

Mountain medicine is absolutely nothing to do with my specialty, so a non-issue for me, but I definitely might be a bystander - and since I always have current BLS and ACLS, I might have to use them. Here, good samaritan laws cover medical professionals, plus CMPA will usually cover MDs who provide emergency medical care in an isolated setting (for instance, on an airplane) - including if you have retired and no longer have CMPA coverage. Quebec is the only province that has legislation that actually imposes a legal duty for physicians to provide aid in life threatening emergencies, everywhere else it is up to your own judgement/ethics. I think the key is that you're really providing first aid, sometimes more advanced if there's a good medical kit or AED available, and nothing that you do should delay or interfere with EMS. Using the airline example, it's interesting that, although airlines in Canada have been sued for how the airline has prepared for or dealt with a medical emergency, no physician who has provided care on an airplane has been sued.

From the small amount of detail in the article, it sounds like he runs a general practice clinic in a location that serves a small local population and gives him easy access to skiing. It really doesn't say anything about a formal relationship with the resort beyond going out with ski patrol, which might be on a strictly volunteer basis like MDs do here.
 

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Posts
1,981
Location
Where I worked as an EMT patroller, there was at least one patroller on duty every day that could start IVs and administer IV meds, including narcotics. The only volunteer on the patrol was the physician medical director, who was only there on days they were free-skiing. Every patroller there is either an EMT-B, EMT-A, or a paramedic, and the patrol is a licensed EMS service. So, it varies widely from place to place and generalizations don’t apply.

There were a number of times when I (and others) was responding and found a non-ski area physician already on-scene. The protocol calls for notifying the physician that if they wanted to provide the care, they would be responsible for the patient until arrival at the hospital. In my experience, unless the physician is experienced in first responder skills, they were happy to let the EMT handle the assessment, treatment, and transportation. I remember neurologists, surgeons, and other non-EMS types being glad to let the EMTs handle things after a short discussion. I was always happy for advice from a physician, but I understood that I was responsible for the patient’s care.

Other than the medical director, other physicians didn’t seem interested in working on that patrol once they understood the in-house capabilities.

Mentioned in the article, Mogul Medicine in nearby Taos is a whole different case.
 
Last edited:

pais alto

me encanta el país alto
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Posts
1,981
Location
I was hoping you were going to chime in. So I wonder if the pro patrols that are out there that require EMT certs also are licensed EMS services or if that is somewhat unique.
I couldn't say. :huh: That would probably be required for patrols that dispense controlled substances.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,863
All doctors specialize in something and their license to practice is specific to that specialty. They cannot cross fields (i.e. Family medicine to ER) just like that by opening up a practice by the mountain or volunteering. If anything goes wrong, they will lose their license.

Must be local laws. My brother worked as an industrial physician and moonlighted as an ER physician. His residency was in family medicine.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top