Simplest way to teach newer skiers?

[James]

It would be remiss here not to mention yesterday's favorite ski terminology debate: "snowplow."

No, it wouldn’t. There’s no debate. Let it go. You could write a book on it, but
a) no one cares
b) makes no difference
c) it’s 30-40 years late for this topic
d) go back to a)

Snowplow. Turn to the right. 1941 Army training film. Those skis had metal edges too.
When the skis are that far apart, it’s almost impossible to flatten the inner ski. The only choice is push the outer ski, or lean over it.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Snowplow hasn’t been used as a teaching term in decades. Popularly it lasted longer. Kids definitely haven’t heard it. Probably you need to be 40 yrs old in the US.

I hate to keep this going, but as your local Darned Youths representative I gotta say that I've only ever heard "snowplow" from my age group, at least in the wild. It's possible the PSIA members among our ranks could maybe use wedge in a sentence if you stared at them expectantly long enough? Someone's PhD linguistics thesis lives in there for sure.

 

[snowtravel]

No, it wouldn’t. There’s no debate. Let it go. You could write a book on it, but
a) no one cares
b) makes no difference
c) it’s 30-40 years late for this topic
d) go back to a)

View attachment 232314
Snowplow. Turn to the right. 1941 Army training film. Those skis had metal edges too.
When the skis are that far apart, it’s almost impossible to flatten the inner ski. The only choice is push the outer ski, or lean over it.

"No one cares."

Yet minutes later, here you are, negating your own premise.

And there's this:

Tricia:
Stop replying with the term snowplow!

People argue over "snowplow" just as you and I and Tricia do because they care.

Words resonate.

I'll be the first person to line up behind sticking with familiar terms, but I'm not the one who insists on a needless and counter-productive language ban that isn't happening anyway, except in the anachronistic PSIA.

The failed effort to proscribe "snowplow" is truly telling about what "student-centered" PSIA stands for, then as now.

In short, you can pretend all you want to, but everybody in skiing understands what snowplow means, and many people demonstrably don't know "wedge."

(It's hilarious, really.)

 

[David Kurtz]

No, it wouldn’t. There’s no debate. Let it go. You could write a book on it, but
a) no one cares
b) makes no difference
c) it’s 30-40 years late for this topic
d) go back to a)

a.) I care.
b.) It doesn't make a difference, and that's kind of the point. PSIA didn't need to change it. It was probably better left alone. Let's learn from history for future decisions.
c.) I use the term Snowplow, and my kids use the term snowplow, because kids often learn language from parents.
d.) A quick google search will show that the term, snowplow or snowplough is still pretty actively in use.

Whenever you say "let it go", it goes for everyone. I can't remember the last time someone just kept posting something without anyone responding. Best way to get someone to let it go is not to reply which is what I will do if anyone feels the need to respond to this post.

 

[snowtravel]

a.) I care.
b.) It doesn't make a difference, and that's kind of the point. PSIA didn't need to change it. It was probably better left alone. Let's learn from history for future decisions.
c.) I use the term Snowplow, and my kids use the term snowplow, because kids often learn language from parents.
d.) A quick google search will show that the term, snowplow or snowplough is still pretty actively in use.

Whenever you say "let it go", it goes for everyone. I can't remember the last time someone just kept posting something without anyone responding. Best way to get someone to let it go is not to reply which is what I will do if anyone feels the need to respond to this post.

Brief and to the point.

The words themselves wouldn't matter, but for revealing the intent of the speakers themselves.

If you just want to say wedge or pizza or Holy Grail too then I really wouldn't care. You can ski on your head and call it your feet if you like.

Snowplow is perhaps skiing's most obvious descriptive. In seeking to ban it—or even pretending it's banned when it hasn't—what's on the agenda?

 

[mister moose]

I literally have no idea what you mean here. (Decaying wedge?) However, it's obvious that your experience with beginners is different than mine.

In any event, should anyone doubt the prevalence of tips crossing, drop by the rental shop and have a look at the topsheets.

(I'd suggest watching live classes, but unless you have kids enrolled it would be...weird.)

Of course some beginners cross tips. I'm stating that more commonly when a wedge decays, ie varies from functional, the more common failure mode is for the tips to move apart toward parallel. This goes to the amount of leg twisting vs amount of abduction in the legs. (As well as the forces produced by the fairly flat or fairly edged ski) I'm still wondering why that it more common; strikes me as potentially quite complicated.

View attachment 232314
Snowplow. Turn to the right. 1941 Army training film. Those skis had metal edges too.
When the skis are that far apart, it’s almost impossible to flatten the inner ski. The only choice is push the outer ski, or lean over it.

The wedge and snowplow as you define them are like street vs lane. They are both 2 way public thoroughfares, and most people associate street as wider than lane. The only difference is width, it is not a separate item. Both come in many widths. Each is one place on the spectrum of the item.

Austrian technique for a traverse used to be WAY different. We still say traverse, and mean it in a more modern sense. I don't think saying 'snowplow' is a sin. We don't argue about the width of the pizza slice, why argue about the width of the snowplow?

In the end, the word that successfully conveys the effective desired movement to the beginner in front of you is the one you use.

 

[snowtravel]

Of course some beginners cross tips. I'm stating that more commonly when a wedge decays, ie varies from functional, the more common failure mode is for the tips to move apart toward parallel. This goes to the amount of leg twisting vs amount of abduction in the legs. (As well as the forces produced by the fairly flat or fairly edged ski) I'm still wondering why that it more common; strikes me as potentially quite complicated.

The wedge and snowplow as you define them are like street vs lane. They are both 2 way public thoroughfares, and most people associate street as wider than lane. The only difference is width, it is not a separate item. Both come in many widths. Each is one place on the spectrum of the item.

Austrian technique for a traverse used to be WAY different. We still say traverse, and mean it in a more modern sense. I don't think saying 'snowplow' is a sin. We don't argue about the width of the pizza slice, why argue about the width of the snowplow?

In the end, the word that successfully conveys the effective desired movement to the beginner in front of you is the one you use.

OK, perhaps I understand. I mean, the street versus lane thing, not so much...but onward:

If nothing else, snowplows are strong and stable. The wide stance makes lateral balance easier. So when we see a wedge "decay" under control, as teachers we're happy campers. As long as the skier can spread out to a wider wedge, then back to a "decayed wedge" and yet back again—IOW, wedge change-ups—it means that skier is getting comfy moving toward parallel.

(When that happens spontaneously, the teacher's sorta like a hero.)

 

[mister moose]

If nothing else, snowplows are strong and stable. The wide stance makes lateral balance easier. So when we see a wedge "decay" under control, as teachers we're happy campers. As long as the skier can spread out to a wider wedge, then back to a "decayed wedge" and yet back again—IOW, wedge change-ups—it means that skier is getting comfy moving toward parallel.

(When that happens spontaneously, the teacher's sorta like a hero.)

'Decaying under control' is the opposite of what I mean. I mean uncommanded decay.

And it seems you are venturing into James's point. A 'wider wedge' will increase edge angle. You can go from parallel to wedge without changing stance width, or if so, fairly little.

 

[Andy Mink]