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Should I get Carv

Mike King

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While the early adopters continue to defend the product (and their justification for the investment) in the face of overwhelming evidence that it wasn't a great purchase decision.

I predict that CARV will fail. If the replacement rate on the insoles is as high as it "feels" from the CARV thread, then the writing is on the wall. The fact that they've implemented the new subscription-based model just screams of a cash-starved company trying to hang on. Soon enough these won't even work as a door stop.
@Noodler, nice, let's just proceed to the ad hominem attacks. I'm an early adopter; I paid less than $150 for my setup, and I've received replacement insoles for free since getting the system. As an early adopter, I do not pay the subscription fee. So the purported need to justify my "investment" is irrelevant.

The movement to a subscription-based business model is hardly surprising. Software companies transitioned to such a model a decade ago; subscription income provides the needed funds to invest in the ongoing development of the product. Similarly, Carv has continued to invest in the development and training of their algorithms: see https://getcarv.com/blog/introducing-skiiq-hintertux

You assert (without any support) that Carv is a flawed system. Yet the system itself arose out of the CEO's Ph.D. dissertation -- clearly it had a sufficient theoretical and empirical basis and result for his work to be able to stand the examination by his dissertation committee. And there's considerable development of the hardware, software, data, and algorithms since. With lots of review and development assistance by demo team members from around the world as well as several FIS level ski racers.
 

James

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What happens if you just buy the unit for $200 and don’t get the subscription?
 
Thread Starter
TS
Slim

Slim

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What happens if you just buy the unit for $200 and don’t get the subscription?
Someone posted the answer up thread. Basically, you get very limited data, not really worth while. But, you could maybe stop the subtraction after a year or two, then start it up again the year after.
 

Wade

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One takeaway from this thread for the entrepreneurs - there's a massive untapped business opportunity in creating product review websites where the reviews are written by people who have never tried and have no interest in ever using the products being reviewed!
 

dovski

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One takeaway from this thread for the entrepreneurs - there's a massive untapped business opportunity in creating product review websites where the reviews are written by people who have never tried and have no interest in ever using the products being reviewed!
I think that already exists, isn’t that Amazon lol
 

James

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One takeaway from this thread for the entrepreneurs - there's a massive untapped business opportunity in creating product review websites where the reviews are written by people who have never tried and have no interest in ever using the products being reviewed
That’s a silly road to go down.
Ruby Franke had over 2 million followers for her child rearing youtube videos. She’s in jail for child abuse.
Should we mention Elizabeth Holmes at this point? In jail. But Henry Kissinger and George Schultz were huge boosters of the company. There’s no end to great reviews by real people let alone fake review farms.
 

AlexisLD

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You assert (without any support) that Carv is a flawed system. Yet the system itself arose out of the CEO's Ph.D. dissertation -- clearly it had a sufficient theoretical and empirical basis and result for his work to be able to stand the examination by his dissertation committee. And there's considerable development of the hardware, software, data, and algorithms since. With lots of review and development assistance by demo team members from around the world as well as several FIS level ski racers.

Where is the thesis?

I think he applied his knowledge of physics and economics to start Carv. I highly doubt his thesis was on skiing, given that he was studying financial economics. There are no links between both topics. From the information I can find, I doubt he finished his PhD. That would mean that Carv is not peer-reviewed and no thesis was defended in front of a committee.

It is 100% flawed to say that you can measure the normal forces applied on a ski with a pressure insole in a ski boot. There is no question about it, it is basic physics. I am with Noodler on that, it is bad marketing. They are not the only ones making unproven/false claims (i.e., BOA = more performance). That being said, even if it is flawed, there might be something useful to get out of that sensor. Furthermore, most of Carv's metrics right now are not using the pressure insole.

Most "wearable" products right now are useless (when the measurements are not wrong to start with). I have a smartwatch and I get health stats from it, but there is very little actionable stuff I can do with it. We think that because we buy that stuff our VO2 max will suddenly increase, that we will walk 10,000+ steps or that we will sleep better. It could happen to some, but it is not happening to me. All these companies have to find ways to make these products useful... either showing stats, being a library of online resources to go with it, gamifying your sports, etc.
 

Wade

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That’s a silly road to go down.
Ruby Franke had over 2 million followers for her child rearing youtube videos. She’s in jail for child abuse.
Should we mention Elizabeth Holmes at this point? In jail. But Henry Kissinger and George Schultz were huge boosters of the company. There’s no end to great reviews by real people let alone fake review farms.
Of course it’s a silly road to go down. It was a joke.
 

geepers

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Just saying that at one point in time Ted Ligety had an entire coaching and training team, helping him do everything he could to improve both his form and performance ... Carv was not a part of that as it did not yet exist.

And to be clear Ted is an amazing skier, but having him use Carv does not really prove the point that if I use it my skiing will improve.

Ted's helping CARV, not the other way around. They are using his skiing to further develop their metrics and software.

he backed off on the performance of his boot fit.

Maybe. Still generating close to 4G centripetal turns in those crappy fitting boots. How many G are the rest of us generating, even if our boots fit great?

We learn to dismantle what a paid person “recommends” can mean in that system.

When was the last time you bought anything 'cause some-one famous (who you'd never met) recommended it?

Most of us develop a healthy skepticism towards famous recommendations and make decisions based on other reasons. The famous merely bring it to our attention.

I predict that CARV will fail.

Not sure about worldwide but in Australia roughly 60% of start-ups fail in the 1st 5 years. 5 years is no time to relax as, guess what, of the remaining companies another 60% fail in the subsequent 5 years. No particular reason to think the stats are different elsewhere - Michael Gerber (author of E Myth Revisited) reckons the rates are 80%.

TL;DR - it's damn hard to start and keep a company operating.

CARV's been going since Dec 2017. Into their second 5 year period so they are doing better than most. Let's see how your prediction goes - shall we check quarterly or annually?


It is 100% flawed to say that you can measure the normal forces applied on a ski with a pressure insole in a ski boot. There is no question about it, it is basic physics.

An accelerometer is used to measure the acceleration of the ski/skier. F=ma. (And do we really care much about the F since it's mass dependent, varies with skier/equipment.) The acceleration is combined with edge angle measurement to isolate the centripetal component. Basic physics. Interesting metric for a carving skier.

Happy for anyone to explain how that doesn't work.
 

James

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Most of us develop a healthy skepticism towards famous recommendations and make decisions based on other reasons. The famous merely bring it to our attention.
So no need to dismantle the whole capitalist system? This is getting circular.
Upshot: So and so is paid by the company. Take that endorsement however one wants.

It would be better just to discuss the things people have figured out with this system. Like their boots were too big. Or we can just argue about companies and paid endorsements.

Many of the people buying this get or have gotten tons of coaching in their ski career. It’s data they can put into context.

The thing is $300 for one year’s use. Not that expensive in the ski world. They could sell an $800 version for Masters Racers.
 

AlexisLD

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An accelerometer is used to measure the acceleration of the ski/skier. F=ma. (And do we really care much about the F since it's mass dependent, varies with skier/equipment.) The acceleration is combined with edge angle measurement to isolate the centripetal component. Basic physics. Interesting metric for a carving skier.

Happy for anyone to explain how that doesn't work.

It is important when you claim that you can measure the fore-aft and left-right force distribution, as well as the early weight transfer onto the ski. All of these are important factors to consider to improve your skiing.

The accelerometer measures the acceleration at the foot. It is not the acceleration we care about (it is like if you measure the acceleration of your wrist... who cares?). F=ma only works when applied at the center of mass... real basic physics!

Nobody has really been able to measure the real edge angle using an IMU. There are multiple papers about it. What you get is the angle with respect to the inertial reference frame. The problem is that you don't know the slope angle. The edge angle is the angle between the ski base and the slope. It is only possible to estimate the slope angle when the slope is long and constant over multiple turns. There is no chance of getting a good measurement of the edge angle in moguls.

But again, the role of a business is not to find the truth. It is to find useful things to do with what they have...
 

dovski

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Ted's helping CARV, not the other way around. They are using his skiing to further develop their metrics and software.
Again that is great, but from a marketing perspective it is not selling me.

I think the raw data they generate is really interesting, but just one piece of the puzzle. I would be much more inclined to invest say $1K in carve if the purchase came with say a 3 day clinic where they analyzed your Carv data, worked with you on the now to improve form .. etc. and identify drills you could then do yourself to continue to improve your skiing. It would also be nice if the filmed you at the start and end of the clinic, with the Carv data showing how improvements in your form and technique changed the data. This could be a really interesting model where Carv partners with resorts to deliver this higher value immersive clinic ... just saying this would be a much higher value offering IMHO as it addresses the missing elements that technology cannot deliver on its own :)
 

AlexisLD

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Again that is great, but from a marketing perspective it is not selling me.

I think the raw data they generate is really interesting, but just one piece of the puzzle. I would be much more inclined to invest say $1K in carve if the purchase came with say a 3 day clinic where they analyzed your Carv data, worked with you on the now to improve form .. etc. and identify drills you could then do yourself to continue to improve your skiing. It would also be nice if the filmed you at the start and end of the clinic, with the Carv data showing how improvements in your form and technique changed the data. This could be a really interesting model where Carv partners with resorts to deliver this higher value immersive clinic ... just saying this would be a much higher value offering IMHO as it addresses the missing elements that technology cannot deliver on its own :)

There you go!


Can't wait for you to review how these camps are! :)

It is just $1700 + you have to get your Carv system/subscription. Just a bit more than what you hoped for!
 

dovski

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There you go!


Can't wait for you to review how these camps are! :)

It is just $1700 + you have to get your Carv system/subscription. Just a bit more than what you hoped for!
Actually this is interesting, expensive, but interesting. Also looks like you can rent Carv for the camp. Would be curious who the instructors are.
Personally though, I would most likely sign up for a Dan Egan Steeps Camp over this if I could spare the time this year.
 

dovski

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You will get more technically at that Carve camp. Dan would be more mental and approach to terrain.
@Mike King might know who the Aspen instructors are for Carve.
Completely agree 100% and my answer is still the same :)

That said I do like the approach of the Carv camp too. Combine expert instruction with Carv data makes sense to me
 

geepers

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The accelerometer measures the acceleration at the foot. It is not the acceleration we care about (it is like if you measure the acceleration of your wrist... who cares?). F=ma only works when applied at the center of mass... real basic physics!

The acceleration of the outside foot/ski through key parts of the turn is a pretty good proxy for acceleration of the CoM. Through the part of the turn where it matters Ted's outside leg flex is not changing that much.

Can't say I see much outside leg flex through the part of this turn where the CoM is redirected.


You know that joke about the physicist, the engineer and a converging series - which one drank the beer?

The edge angle is the angle between the ski base and the slope. It is only possible to estimate the slope angle when the slope is long and constant over multiple turns. There is no chance of getting a good measurement of the edge angle in moguls.

Probably the hint is in the product name - CARV. If it was for measuring what happens in the moguls maybe they would have called it BUMP?

IMUs provide an accurate (within 0.6°) and precise (within 0.1°) measurement of static sensor orientation and an accurate (within 4.4° per second) and precise (within 0.2° per second) representation of angular velocity. Sure, it's to an external reference frame and not the slope. So what? It' not like we need to measure the instantaneous normal force at all points in a turn to +- a newton. If skier A gets a G metric of 1.4G and skier B 2.4G who is the more performant skier? If skier A then does some more work and then gets a metric of 1.8G have they not improved?

I think the raw data they generate is really interesting, but just one piece of the puzzle. I would be much more inclined to invest say $1K in carve if the purchase came with say a 3 day clinic where they analyzed your Carv data, worked with you on the now to improve form .. etc. and identify drills you could then do yourself to continue to improve your skiing. It would also be nice if the filmed you at the start and end of the clinic, with the Carv data showing how improvements in your form and technique changed the data. This could be a really interesting model where Carv partners with resorts to deliver this higher value immersive clinic ... just saying this would be a much higher value offering IMHO as it addresses the missing elements that technology cannot deliver on its own :)

You can get that from, say, Big Picture Skiing. Both in person and by online coaching.

BTW there may another reason WC may not want to use CARV. Max heel height rule - they are limited to how far they can have their heels off the snow. Or something like that. The WC tech folk can provide the exact rule. IIRC Ted was once disqualified for too much heel height and stated there's not a racer out there who doesn't sit on the limit due to the leveraging advantage it provides. 3mm is a lot (in their world) and would likely mean training and racing on different boot setups.

So no need to dismantle the whole capitalist system? This is getting circular.
Upshot: So and so is paid by the company. Take that endorsement however one wants.

Endorsements likely to affect us are based on trust.

Don't know Ligety - have only seen the personae he cares to reveal to the public. Seems like a straightforward guy. Can't see a reason he'd let them claim no boot mods when we'd all understand if his boots (of all boots) needed mods.

But I don't know Ted so his endorsement is mostly neutral for me.

Gellie I know a little bit. He helped with some back issues and have found his BPS content very useful. That's a good track record so his endorsement is a plus for me.
 

AlexisLD

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The acceleration of the outside foot/ski through key parts of the turn is a pretty good proxy for acceleration of the CoM.

Says who?

Through the part of the turn where it matters Ted's outside leg flex is not changing that much.

Can't say I see much outside leg flex through the part of this turn where the CoM is redirected.

The problem is the (w^2 x r) part of 3D acceleration. Their measurement won't be too bad for long turns, but I think it can be pretty bad for short turns and pivoting.

Probably the hint is in the product name - CARV. If it was for measuring what happens in the moguls maybe they would have called it BUMP?

In this year's update to their software (hintertux), they claim that "terrain became the north star for our Data Science team. If you sent it down a steep pitch, or braved the bumps, we wanted you to be fairly rewarded [...]"

IMUs provide an accurate (within 0.6°) and precise (within 0.1°) measurement of static sensor orientation

Static sensor orientation is irrelevant to a dynamic sport like skiing. IMUs estimate the sensor orientation by fusing the estimate of the gravity vector's orientation and the angular speed. The estimate of the gravity vector's orientation is completely off when you spend most of your time not at 1g, in high-vibration environments or at non-zero angular velocities. The angular speed integration can only work for so long before drifting.

Sure, it's to an external reference frame and not the slope. So what?

Bumps was an exaggeration. You would get the same error with rolling terrain. You can be many degrees off on your estimation of edge angle. This is one metric that they provide. It is probably not an issue if you use the same line on the same terrain, but other than that it can be fairly off.

It' not like we need to measure the instantaneous normal force at all points in a turn to +- a newton.

It is not what their marketing says when they compare Ted to other skiers. They show the full time history of the measured/calculated values.

A turn is also more than just the maximum acceleration at one point in time. The change in direction is related to the applied impulse (the integral of the force through time). If you can push more early and late in the turn, you will turn more. For example, if you apply a uniform force from the start to the finish of the turn, you will need only half the maximum force to perform the same change in direction compared to someone who ramp up/down the force in a linear fashion.

If skier A gets a G metric of 1.4G and skier B 2.4G who is the more performant skier? If skier A then does some more work and then gets a metric of 1.8G have they not improved?

Sure, these numbers also mean that skier B is going 30% faster on the same course. No need to spend any money on Carv to assess that. A good old stopwatch should have plenty of resolution! :)
 

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