"Should I be angry at this bootfitter" with updated conclusion.

[Bruno Schull]

I am from the US, but I live in Switzerland. I am on a ski holiday with my family in Grindelwald. A few days ago, I needed some work on my touring boots. I had had the liners molded at the start of the season, but after some use I realized I needed shell work. I was very hesitant to visit a local shop, because, as crazy as this sounds, in a famous ski town, in a famous ski country, it's not easy to find people who do good work, especially people you can communicate with, and I don't just mean the English language, I mean the navigating the whole world of expectations, social differences, standards, and so on. I asked around, and was told where to find the best bootfitter. I scheduled a visit. An older and obviously experienced man, and the own of a big store, checked my boots, and even brought out a special hammer, which he tapped around the shell to locate hot spots. Cool, I thought, I am being treated to time with a real expert, and I am experiencing the legendary "Swiss Quality." We decided on three modifications: 1) Shave down the boot board by 1-2 mm to create some space in the toes, 2) punch the shell on both sides for a bunion and a 6th toe, and 3) punch the front of the boot for my big toe. This is an Atomic Hawx 120 XTD touring boot, perhaps not the easiest plastic to work with, but this is a big store, with lots of custom made bootfitting vises, grips, presses, clamps, and they do sell and work on lightweight touring boots. The technician seemed totally confident (too confident) that this would not be a problem at all. A few days later, I went back to pick up the boots. My first impression was that the work looked a little "rough" but it's so hard to talk to Swiss Germans (even when they speak English) that I just smiled and acted nice and said everything was fine. The man seemed to be very rushed to get my liners in the boots as soon as possible (I had the liners). I paid about 80 dollars and left. When I got home, I took out the liners and looked more closely. In the first boot, the boot board had been shaved down gradually. It was a little irregular, but that's OK, it's just a boot board, right? In the second boot, the boot board was broken into 5 pieces. One small piece was missing. Somebody had tried to glue it back together, but the glue failed. The punches on the sides looked fine. The toe punches were very concerning. They had punched both toes, perhaps a little farther than I would have liked. I think they realized that the bulge might interfere with my bindings (Atomic Shift) so it appears that they used a grinder to cut back the punch from the outside. On one boot especially, you can see a prominent cut in the shell. I can't immagine the shell is more than 0.5 mm thick in that place now, and I expect it will break. I have not been able to check the function of the boot with my binding, but I am not optimistic. This strikes me as very poor work, especially as they didn't tell me about the boot board. I took pictures, an called them on the phone. These situations are difficult, but I tried to be very nice, but also make my point. Without admitting any wrong-doing, they said that they would order new boot boards. What do you think? What about that toe punch and the grinding? As the title of this post says, should I be angry? Thanks, and sorry for the rant.

Picture 1--the broken boot board. The strange divot near the toe is molded into the board. The attempted glue job is visible.

Picture 2--the toe punch. Some explanation is needed. Let's start at the bottom. The metal bits just visible on the sides are the fittings for pins. The indentation next to the fitting on the right side is natural wear from the binding. On the top or "shelf" of the toe there is some brown discoloration on the left. That is dirt from the ground. The yellow discoloration on the right is from the toe punch. Does that mean that they overheated the plastic? The obvious cut on the right side is their work with the grinder. Is that too deep to cut?

 

[pchewn]

The broken boot board is unacceptable. It should be replaced. The discolorations and irregularities around a punch are to be expected.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Thanks, pchewn. What about the grinding on the outside of the toe punch?

 

[Winks]

I am from the US, but I live in Switzerland. I am on a ski holiday with my family in Grindelwald. A few days ago, I needed some work on my touring boots. I had had the liners molded at the start of the season, but after some use I realized I needed shell work. I was very hesitant to visit a local shop, because, as crazy as this sounds, in a famous ski town, in a famous ski country, it's not easy to find people who do good work, especially people you can communicate with, and I don't just mean the English language, I mean the navigating the whole world of expectations, social differences, standards, and so on. I asked around, and was told where to find the best bootfitter. I scheduled a visit. An older and obviously experienced man, and the own of a big store, checked my boots, and even brought out a special hammer, which he tapped around the shell to locate hot spots. Cool, I thought, I am being treated to time with a real expert, and I am experiencing the legendary "Swiss Quality." We decided on three modifications: 1) Shave down the boot board by 1-2 mm to create some space in the toes, 2) punch the shell on both sides for a bunion and a 6th toe, and 3) punch the front of the boot for my big toe. This is an Atomic Hawx 120 XTD touring boot, perhaps not the easiest plastic to work with, but this is a big store, with lots of custom made bootfitting vises, grips, presses, clamps, and they do sell and work on lightweight touring boots. The technician seemed totally confident (too confident) that this would not be a problem at all. A few days later, I went back to pick up the boots. My first impression was that the work looked a little "rough" but it's so hard to talk to Swiss Germans (even when they speak English) that I just smiled and acted nice and said everything was fine. The man seemed to be very rushed to get my liners in the boots as soon as possible (I had the liners). I paid about 80 dollars and left. When I got home, I took out the liners and looked more closely. In the first boot, the boot board had been shaved down gradually. It was a little irregular, but that's OK, it's just a boot board, right? In the second boot, the boot board was broken into 5 pieces. One small piece was missing. Somebody had tried to glue it back together, but the glue failed. The punches on the sides looked fine. The toe punches were very concerning. They had punched both toes, perhaps a little farther than I would have liked. I think they realized that the bulge might interfere with my bindings (Atomic Shift) so it appears that they used a grinder to cut back the punch from the outside. On one boot especially, you can see a prominent cut in the shell. I can't immagine the shell is more than 0.5 mm thick in that place now, and I expect it will break. I have not been able to check the function of the boot with my binding, but I am not optimistic. This strikes me as very poor work, especially as they didn't tell me about the boot board. I took pictures, an called them on the phone. These situations are difficult, but I tried to be very nice, but also make my point. Without admitting any wrong-doing, they said that they would order new boot boards. What do you think? What about that toe punch and the grinding? As the title of this post says, should I be angry? Thanks, and sorry for the rant.

Picture 1--the broken boot board. The strange divot near the toe is molded into the board. The attempted glue job is visible.
View attachment 94688

Picture 2--the toe punch. Some explanation is needed. Let's start at the bottom. The metal bits just visible on the sides are the fittings for pins. The indentation next to the fitting on the right side is natural wear from the binding. On the top or "shelf" of the toe there is some brown discoloration on the left. That is dirt from the ground. The yellow discoloration on the right is from the toe punch. Does that mean that they overheated the plastic? The obvious cut on the right side is their work with the grinder. Is that too deep to cut?

View attachment 94689

First of all that is not quality work for professional bootfitter, second the entire boot is heat moldable and all of that work could have been finished in about a half hour.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Thanks Winks. I know the boot is heat moldable--that was my first suggestion to the guy at the store. I have to say, though, that I asked in at least 3 or 4 different stores over the last few months, and none of them seemed enthusiastic about molding the boot. They all seemed to suggest that punching first was the best bet, so that the whole boot didn't get bigger all around. I've heard that in other places, too. In fact, I'd still love to heat up the whole boot, if I could just find a shop that would be willing to do it. I think that many don't have the ovens to heat the whole boots, or the experience to do it well. Like I said, that might not be what you'd expect in Switzerland, but you might be surprised by how backward so many things are here, and by the general lack or knowledge, curiosity, and initiative.

 

[Winks]

Thanks Winks. I know the boot is heat moldable--that was my first suggestion to the guy at the store. I have to say, though, that I asked in at least 3 or 4 different stores over the last few months, and none of them seemed enthusiastic about molding the boot. They all seemed to suggest that punching first was the best bet, so that the whole boot didn't get bigger all around. I've heard that in other places, too. In fact, I'd still love to heat up the whole boot, if I could just find a shop that would be willing to do it. I think that many don't have the ovens to heat the whole boots, or the experience to do it well. Like I said, that might not be what you'd expect in Switzerland, but you might be surprised by how backward so many things are here, and by the general lack or knowledge, curiosity, and initiative.

I have heard that theory many times before about not heating the shell unless you need to, in my honest opinion that is just a lazy bootfitter. I heat mold almost every single boot I can, I have helped thousands of skiers and rarely does someone come back and say I created too much space

 

[Ken_R]

I am from the US, but I live in Switzerland. I am on a ski holiday with my family in Grindelwald. A few days ago, I needed some work on my touring boots. I had had the liners molded at the start of the season, but after some use I realized I needed shell work. I was very hesitant to visit a local shop, because, as crazy as this sounds, in a famous ski town, in a famous ski country, it's not easy to find people who do good work, especially people you can communicate with, and I don't just mean the English language, I mean the navigating the whole world of expectations, social differences, standards, and so on. I asked around, and was told where to find the best bootfitter. I scheduled a visit. An older and obviously experienced man, and the own of a big store, checked my boots, and even brought out a special hammer, which he tapped around the shell to locate hot spots. Cool, I thought, I am being treated to time with a real expert, and I am experiencing the legendary "Swiss Quality." We decided on three modifications: 1) Shave down the boot board by 1-2 mm to create some space in the toes, 2) punch the shell on both sides for a bunion and a 6th toe, and 3) punch the front of the boot for my big toe. This is an Atomic Hawx 120 XTD touring boot, perhaps not the easiest plastic to work with, but this is a big store, with lots of custom made bootfitting vises, grips, presses, clamps, and they do sell and work on lightweight touring boots. The technician seemed totally confident (too confident) that this would not be a problem at all. A few days later, I went back to pick up the boots. My first impression was that the work looked a little "rough" but it's so hard to talk to Swiss Germans (even when they speak English) that I just smiled and acted nice and said everything was fine. The man seemed to be very rushed to get my liners in the boots as soon as possible (I had the liners). I paid about 80 dollars and left. When I got home, I took out the liners and looked more closely. In the first boot, the boot board had been shaved down gradually. It was a little irregular, but that's OK, it's just a boot board, right? In the second boot, the boot board was broken into 5 pieces. One small piece was missing. Somebody had tried to glue it back together, but the glue failed. The punches on the sides looked fine. The toe punches were very concerning. They had punched both toes, perhaps a little farther than I would have liked. I think they realized that the bulge might interfere with my bindings (Atomic Shift) so it appears that they used a grinder to cut back the punch from the outside. On one boot especially, you can see a prominent cut in the shell. I can't immagine the shell is more than 0.5 mm thick in that place now, and I expect it will break. I have not been able to check the function of the boot with my binding, but I am not optimistic. This strikes me as very poor work, especially as they didn't tell me about the boot board. I took pictures, an called them on the phone. These situations are difficult, but I tried to be very nice, but also make my point. Without admitting any wrong-doing, they said that they would order new boot boards. What do you think? What about that toe punch and the grinding? As the title of this post says, should I be angry? Thanks, and sorry for the rant.

Picture 1--the broken boot board. The strange divot near the toe is molded into the board. The attempted glue job is visible.
View attachment 94688

Picture 2--the toe punch. Some explanation is needed. Let's start at the bottom. The metal bits just visible on the sides are the fittings for pins. The indentation next to the fitting on the right side is natural wear from the binding. On the top or "shelf" of the toe there is some brown discoloration on the left. That is dirt from the ground. The yellow discoloration on the right is from the toe punch. Does that mean that they overheated the plastic? The obvious cut on the right side is their work with the grinder. Is that too deep to cut?

View attachment 94689

I would be very angry. The bootboard was destroyed by them. The front of the boot is all chewed up. Binding wear!? Their cut right below the punch is just nasty.

 

[Winks]

I would also be concerned with the possibility that a tech binding could fail during use because the distance has been reduced and altered in some way.

 

[LiquidFeet]

This is so sad.
Are you still there in Grindelwald? Can you go back and complain?

 

[AngryAnalyst]

I'm not sure how realistic a resolution to the problem is given language barriers/general reluctance of retail employees to offer refunds. However, I absolutely agree with you they did awful work on the boot and if the world was fair they'd be buying you a new one. I don't think that sort of damage is an expected risk of competent boot fitting without some sort of warning before hand (something like: Hey, this boot really doesn't fit your foot and we can try to make it work but we might break the boot in the process. Do you still want me to punch it?).

Even then, I don't understand how they broke the boot board without being totally incompetent.

 

[James]

Breaking the boot board- 1st, are you sure it wasn’t already broken?
They’re pretty fragile, but I’ve yet to have a fitter break one. At least they should order you a new one.
I’ve broken one myself, and also acquired a Fischer boot where one was in three pieces. Taped it together and skied for most of a season till I got the new one.

 

[karlo]

Don’t get mad. Move on.

I had trusted a fitter I didn’t know to affix lifter plates on my favorite boots. Even bought a new pair from him and had him fit it. He screwed up both. Learned my lesson and moved on.

 

[skipress]

Angry... that s for you. Should you be unimpressed, really unimpressed ... yup.

Bootboards do break but that one is shattered. i am not clear if it's been thinned or not, but that's not just broken, it's shattered which suggests big force or underlying [or created] weakness. It's what happens when they catch a bit on the way in or out. That looks like a set from some Nordica NR980s I had [way back when] which had been dremeled thin and I skied a winter and summer season - Val Senales - on em.

I agree with the toe punch, you shouldn't get yellowing but white plastic is a pain in the backside. However that groove on the upper radius could be detrimental to [alpine] binding function and the insert looks to have moved and/or the integrity with shell might be compromised.

It's what a boot looks like when you give an odd shell to a trainee with a dremel, press and just get them to play to get a sense of limits etc.

 

[Sibhusky]

It baffles me why we keep hearing stories about there being a lack of competent bootfitters in Europe. Why is that? There's a huge skiing population!

 

[Bruno Schull]

Chapter 2

Thanks for all the reply. I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before I explored options. The best advice comes from Karlo "Don't get mad. Move on." I wish I could follow that advice. I don't want this to spoil my ski holiday with my wife and daughter. But this bootfitter destroyed my boots. It's worse than I thought at first.

Just to clarify, these boots are/were brand new. I went on 1 ski tour with them, about 1.5 hours up a graded road, and about 20 minutes ski down. So any wear on the boots is negligible. Also, I am using them with Shift bindings, so the pins need to work on the way up, and the regular alpine toe needs to work on the way down.

When I looked closer, I realized that what I thought was wear on the binding is actually damage from te press fittings. This groove cuts into the pin fitting. Also, the toe shelf is bend and deformed, and the irregular surface interferes with the function of the toe. I don't think it's safe to use, with pin bindings, and especially with alpine bindings. I think it will catch during release, or move laterally, get stuck, and not re-center.

I took the boot back to the store, and I had a very difficult conversation with the owner, who did the work on the boots. I tried to stay calm and constructive. He reacted with defensive anger. He claimed that I did not know about boots, that the repair was fine. He said that he knows it looks bad, but that was normal, and that I should be happy that he punched them so that now I can ski with them. I told him that I was afraid of skiing with these boots--the release and retention function is compromised. He insisted that it was perfect. I asked him to test it on a Wintersteiger. He set up the machine. The boot failed three times. It moved to the side, and then got stuck in position--it did not/could not re-center. You could see the toe wing getting stuck on the bulge/groove/deformity. He got very angry, and insisted over and over that the boot was fine.

I said, "OK, I hear you, I know it's not easy. I'm going to leave my name and contact information, and when you calm down, and you don't feel like I am attacking you, pelase think about this, and contact me. Just try to put yourself in my position. I brought you boots, and now they are unsafe to ski. The Wintersteiger confirms that. Basically, you destroyed these boots, and I lost 700 dollars. I hope you do the right thing."


What would I have done in his place? Best case scenario, new boots. Second best, split cost of new boots. Third scenario (very least) refund for work, and buy new boot board.

I worked at a high-end bike store for 15 years. I know how easy it is to make mistakes. I've made basically all the mistakes myself, at one point or another, including soem very expensive mistakes. When we screwed up, we told the customer, apologized, and did whatever it took to make them happy, and we were a family-owned, brick-and-mortar store that barely made ends meet.

In contrast, this man is the owner of the largest rental ski network in the Grindelwald area. He has at least 6 satellite stores. He must employ at least 50-75 people. They sell and demo all the big names, Atomic, Head, Stockli, and so on. For them, the money involved is laughably negligible. For me, it's a large part of my income, something I have to plan and save for. I am not rich. I am a high school teacher.

He really screwed me. Not only did I loose money, I have two ski tours coming up, and I have no boots. Luckily, I found a shop that rents touring boots. The boots will get the job done, and the release function should be safe.

Now if only I can figure out how to follow Karlo's advice, let go or my anger, and move on...

Thanks again.

 

[ARL67]

Wow, that was a very gracious parting comment you presented to the owner. Let’s hope he steps back, takes a deep breath, realizes his mistake, and does the right thing.

 

[Philpug]

Picture 1--the broken boot board. The strange divot near the toe is molded into the board. The attempted glue job is visible.
View attachment 94688


View attachment 94689

I think the indentation in the bootboard is from one of the broken pieces.

I said, "OK, I hear you, I know it's not easy. I'm going to leave my name and contact information, and when you calm down, and you don't feel like I am attacking you, pelase think about this, and contact me. Just try to put yourself in my position. I brought you boots, and now they are unsafe to ski. The Wintersteiger confirms that. Basically, you destroyed these boots, and I lost 700 dollars. I hope you do the right thing."

I do think the boot failing is a clear sign that the work was done improperly. I think the toe lug can be salvaged with a clean routing and a foredom. No fitter I know would let that boot out of their shop.

 

[GB_Ski]

Have you contacted Atomic? I'm not sure if you'll get a better response from them, but in my experience, manufacturers usually have some control over this matter, especially if the shop is a dealer.

 

[Lauren]

I took the boot back to the store, and I had a very difficult conversation with the owner, who did the work on the boots. I tried to stay calm and constructive. He reacted with defensive anger. He claimed that I did not know about boots, that the repair was fine. He said that he knows it looks bad, but that was normal, and that I should be happy that he punched them so that now I can ski with them. I told him that I was afraid of skiing with these boots--the release and retention function is compromised. He insisted that it was perfect. I asked him to test it on a Wintersteiger. He set up the machine. The boot failed three times. It moved to the side, and then got stuck in position--it did not/could not re-center. You could see the toe wing getting stuck on the bulge/groove/deformity. He got very angry, and insisted over and over that the boot was fine.

I said, "OK, I hear you, I know it's not easy. I'm going to leave my name and contact information, and when you calm down, and you don't feel like I am attacking you, pelase think about this, and contact me. Just try to put yourself in my position. I brought you boots, and now they are unsafe to ski. The Wintersteiger confirms that. Basically, you destroyed these boots, and I lost 700 dollars. I hope you do the right thing."

As someone that always tries to give someone the benefit of the doubt...he is obviously in the wrong. You are completely right here. You even got him to prove himself wrong with testing the boot. Bravo for you taking the boot back, and sticking to the high road. There are very few people I know that could keep their cool through this situation. Hopefully once he cools down, he gives you a call and makes things right.

Now if only I can figure out how to follow Karlo's advice, let go or my anger, and move on...

Honestly, there's not a ton more you can do. Take Phil's advice and try to have someone remedy the boot to work, or buy new ones. Sucks you're put into this situation. Post your bad reviews on Yelp, Facebook, and anywhere else you can. There are times that people should be warned of bad service, this sounds like one of them (and it can be therapeutic to write those reviews).

 

[otto]

The indent in the bootboard is a clue that the tooling used to punch the toe ended up causing the damage. When we use tooling to stretch for length in ski boots, you would typically remove or protect the bootboard with a thin polyethylene layer so that it does not fracture the bootboard.

As far as the discoloration and the shape change of the boot toe lug and the tech inserts, the boot plastic was overheated when the stretch was performed. These newer thin walled plastic blends are harder to heat stretch than old school polyurethanes and polyethers. Normally a good boot guy would understand the material that he was stretching, as well as using some material on top of the toe lug to protect it from the heat source like aluminum tape or aluminum foil tape, or a thin piece of wood.

Aside from the fact that the work looks like ass, new boot boards are available from Atomic, and the toe lug could be cleaned up quickly and easily so that the boot performs well in an alpine or tech binding.