PSIA clinics for non-instructors?

[Prosper]

As posted here I'm struggling to find high quality instruction for myself at a price that won't break the bank. @martyg posted the following in that thread, "You also don't have to be actively instructing in PSIA-RM to take advantage of clinics. From a financial standpoint, there are a bargain."

I talked with the level 3 instructor (20+ years of ski instructing experience) I skied with yesterday about this very idea. She was open and honest about her opinion which I appreciated. She frowned upon the idea since the non-instructor, who presumably is taking the clinic just to improve his or her skiing, potentially takes a spot away from an instructor, who presumably is trying to advance in his or her vocation. She said the clinics often fill up and it irks her when she hears of instructors who couldn't get in especially when there were non-instructors taking the clinic. What do you all think of this?

 

[Rich McP]

I had the best clinic of my career last week. It was a brand new clinic and it was wonderful. Last week was the ONLY time it is on the schedule this year. There were 9 slots and I got in only because someone was a no-show. If I had been denied because some spots were occupied by general public I would have been upset. It is very frustrating to see a clinic on the schedule that I need (and yes, I mean need) only to learn that it is already filled up and I can't take it. Since PSIA-RM allows non-instructors to join our division, I guess you could do what you are saying. However, my understanding is that we allow this so that an aspirational would be instructor can learn a bit before applying to work at a school, rather than opening up to the general public.

 

[markojp]

I would think a ski school would prioritize active instructors. If they haven't filled the clinic roster, then non-active members could be next in line. Non-active members still need to keep up their ed credits, but there should be divisional level offerings that will fill that demand.

 

[Johnny V.]

I'm taking a PSIA race clinic at a hill a couple hours from here on Monday and Tuesday. Since it specifically states on the PSIA web site that it is open to non members, I don't feel guilty. I did have to pay a $25 premium as a non-member. I've taken these before at our home hill, and yes, it's a good value.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Mountain has been full of those PSIA packs the past couple of weeks. Sometimes I join in the mix and practice whatever reindeer game they are playing. When I get bored and overtake the leader they often try to shepard me back into the line. Drills of skiing on one ski are my favorite. Ability to transfer all your weight onto one ski at anytime is paramount in my world.

 

[markojp]

GIS, if you aren't committed to skiing in and with the group, it's probably better not to participate . It's a safety/class management issue, particularly this time of year with crowded slopes and limited terrain. And sometimes the point of an exercise IS to do it slowly. Slow is hard. Slow needs more precise movements. Anyhow...

 

[PinnacleJim]

Maybe I'm wrong but I would think the Level 1 clinics would concentrate on how to teach, not on upper level skiing skills. Don't see that as worthwhile for other than someone that wants to try being an instructor. Consider a group lesson midweek non-holiday. The higher level ones are generally very small so you get lots of attention.

 

[Mike King]

I had the best clinic of my career last week. It was a brand new clinic and it was wonderful. Last week was the ONLY time it is on the schedule this year. There were 9 slots and I got in only because someone was a no-show. If I had been denied because some spots were occupied by general public I would have been upset. It is very frustrating to see a clinic on the schedule that I need (and yes, I mean need) only to learn that it is already filled up and I can't take it. Since PSIA-RM allows non-instructors to join our division, I guess you could do what you are saying. However, my understanding is that we allow this so that an aspirational would be instructor can learn a bit before applying to work at a school, rather than opening up to the general public.

Hey Rich, what clinic was that?

While I understand that you feel you NEED this clinic, if he joins, he has as much right to take the clinic as you or I. At least IMHO. Or are you now going to cede your spot to someone who is a full-time instructor? I don't think it is fruitful to create a caste system in PSIA (other than the one that already exists).

 

[Rich McP]

Hey Rich, what clinic was that?

While I understand that you feel you NEED this clinic, if he joins, he has as much right to take the clinic as you or I. At least IMHO. Or are you now going to cede your spot to someone who is a full-time instructor? I don't think it is fruitful to create a caste system in PSIA (other than the one that already exists).

Tip it and Rip it. Ryan Watts ran it. He said it was Josh Fogg's baby.

As to the other, we'll have to agree to disagree. I agree with your statement that "If he joins...", but I don't think that GP are the intended members of the association. If someone is joining to become (or they THINK they want to become) an instructor, then have at it. I disagree with GP joining for the purpose of taking lessons; we have an answer for that already. I also don't follow how you went from instructor vs non-instructor and built some equivalency to instructor vs GP. I don't see that.

 

[Mike King]

Hey Rich, think of it this way. You and I are part time instructors. Let's say Franz decided he wanted to take the course -- would it be right for him to bump you or I? All of us are members of the association. We pay dues to support the organization and, most importantly, pay the Ed staff and venue for hosting the clinic. To put it another way, does a Examiner Emeritus, (Franz) have priority over a Level 3 or Level 2, etc?

Some day I hope to get back to Breck and we can make some turns. Alternatively, come over to Snowmass or Highlands and we can do so here.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

PS, as I said in the other thread, I really don't think taking a PSIA clinic is going to achieve the OP's objective. What the OP needs is a coach. That's a different relationship and product.

Mike

 

[martyg]

I would think a ski school would prioritize active instructors. If they haven't filled the clinic roster, then non-active members could be next in line. Non-active members still need to keep up their ed credits, but there should be divisional level offerings that will fill that demand.

And when you apply on RM PSIA site do you thing that the office staff is really going to know how many hours you have at you home hill? Or care?

Granted, other attendees may not appreciate your attendance, but that is another matter.

 

[Rich McP]

Hey Rich, think of it this way. You and I are part time instructors. Let's say Franz decided he wanted to take the course -- would it be right for him to bump you or I? All of us are members of the association. We pay dues to support the organization and, most importantly, pay the Ed staff and venue for hosting the clinic. To put it another way, does a Examiner Emeritus, (Franz) have priority over a Level 3 or Level 2, etc?

Some day I hope to get back to Breck and we can make some turns. Alternatively, come over to Snowmass or Highlands and we can do so here.

Mike

I think you might be missing my point. No, I don’t think anyone should have priority over anyone. We all pay dues, we all pay exam/clinic fees, if I signed up before Franz it’s my slot not his. If he wants to ask if I’ll forfeit my spot, that’s a different, and valid, conversation. I think PSIA exists to support instructors, not GP. The rules in RM would allow GP signing up and taking clinics, I just feel that’s wrong. One man’s opinion. Like I said, if someone wants to be an instructor, come on, join us!

Some day I hope to get back to Breck and we can make some turns. Alternatively, come over to Snowmass or Highlands and we can do so here.

Mike

Oops, missed the most important part. I hope you do get out to visit us soon. Would love to do some laps again. Ryan told me to call him if I get to Highlands. We should try to make that happen.

 

[rustypouch]

It happens, but I'm not a fan.

There a quite a few people in my part of the world, Alberta, who do this. Most notably, there of a bunch of semi-retired British who stay a few months in the winter, and take everything they can. Clinics here are very inexpensive, and who wouldn't want to hang out on snow with a Level 4? Skiing with them tends to drag things down, as they don't have the physicality, terminology, and shared experience, culture, and understanding as the rest of the group.

Have you thought about instructing part time? Getting the basics nailed, understanding the why behind it, and explaining that to other people has a huge effect on your own skiing.

 

[Blue Streak]

As posted here I'm struggling to find high quality instruction for myself at a price that won't break the bank. @martyg posted the following in that thread, "You also don't have to be actively instructing in PSIA-RM to take advantage of clinics. From a financial standpoint, there are a bargain."

I talked with the level 3 instructor (20+ years of ski instructing experience) I skied with yesterday about this very idea. She was open and honest about her opinion which I appreciated. She frowned upon the idea since the non-instructor, who presumably is taking the clinic just to improve his or her skiing, potentially takes a spot away from an instructor, who presumably is trying to advance in his or her vocation. She said the clinics often fill up and it irks her when she hears of instructors who couldn't get in especially when there were non-instructors taking the clinic. What do you all think of this?

I don’t think I have ever been in a clinic with someone who wasn’t employed at least part time as an instructor.

 

[Magi]

...She frowned upon the idea since the non-instructor, who presumably is taking the clinic just to improve his or her skiing, potentially takes a spot away from an instructor, who presumably is trying to advance in his or her vocation. She said the clinics often fill up and it irks her when she hears of instructors who couldn't get in especially when there were non-instructors taking the clinic. What do you all think of this?

Nonsense. The clinics that don't have at least level 1 as a prerequisite are not the clinics that instructors are taking (by and large) to improve their cert level. Those are clinics they're taking for fun or CEUs. If a clinic fills up there's a waiting list, and if that gets long enough - they generally add clinicians.

I have literally never had an issue signing up for a clinic if I did it 6 weeks in advance.

Bottom line - If PSIA didn't want clinics open to the public - they wouldn't be.

 

[markojp]

And when you apply on RM PSIA site do you thing that the office staff is really going to know how many hours you have at you home hill? Or care?

Granted, other attendees may not appreciate your attendance, but that is another matter.

I have no idea. At the divisional level, they'll certainly know if you're active or not, but honestly I have no skin in this one at all. I really don't care one way or the other.

 

[martyg]

Maybe I'm wrong but I would think the Level 1 clinics would concentrate on how to teach, not on upper level skiing skills. Don't see that as worthwhile for other than someone that wants to try being an instructor. Consider a group lesson midweek non-holiday. The higher level ones are generally very small so you get lots of attention.

It all starts with the perfect execution of a wedge turn. There is no such thing as "advanced techniques". Just totally perfection and mastery of the basics, and applying them appropriately.

Regardless if I am teaching WW kayak or alpine ski, those basics that I am drilling, and modeling for students on benign terrain / water, directly translate into high performance skiing / paddling in demanding situations.

Several years ago I had a student who wanted to dial in their parallel turns. A week later, they sent me this video of Mikaela executing many of the same drills. Basics.


Likewise, some of the best paddlers in the world session at the Brookmont Feeder Canal, where the waves are 6" high.

 

[eyvoom]

If they're open to non-registered members then you're free to join. The only thing to be aware of going in is that these are geared for instructors. There should always be a fair bit of skiing, but there will also be a fair bit of discussion and theory. There is also a mixed bag of abilities at these types of events. Don't assume that because it's a PSIA clinic and everyone is an instructor that they can ski at a high level.

I was in an advanced bump clinic a few years back with some folks that were definitely not "advanced".

 

[HDSkiing]

Is this even a thing? PSIA is always recruiting, as they should be. The industry, needs people who love the sport and are passionate about sharing it with others. Skiing is about the most non-intuitive sport one can engage in, making competent instruction/coaching absolutely necessary for the vast majority of recreational skiers who want to improve, which just really means have more fun...

If I’m in a clinic with a non-Instructor at my home area the First thing I’m gonna do is ask him/her if they would like even a part time job. I say the more the merrier