Problems with ice - technique or gear?

[J2R]

I've just got back from a week's skiing in Austria where the snow base was great but there hadn't been any new snow for a while and many of the slopes were very hard, scraped and icy. I have to say that the boiler-plate stuff really caused me problems at times, as my downhill ski would frequently lose grip while cutting across the slope and slip down the hill a bit, particularly on the steeper stuff. Once you lose confidence that your edge is going to hold, of course, your skiing gets more defensive and problems are exacerbated. I'm wondering what part my technique plays in my problem and how much, if any, it's down to the skis.

I'm a self-taught skier having learned mainly via the PMTS method, and while I'm certainly no expert, I usually cope OK with everything the mountain has to throw at me, on and off-piste. I have just the one pair of skis, Scott Crusades, an all-mountain ski with a 90mm waist, which are a few years old now but are not worn out in terms of their 'pop' (according to a couple of ski shops). After problems on the Monday, I hired a pair of piste skis for the next couple of days, Fischer Progressor 800s (with a 74mm waist), which I loved. The icy stuff was much easier and less problematic - but we'd had a dusting on new snow as well, which made the skis grip better anyway.

So I have a number of questions at this point:

• Firstly, is there something I can do in terms of tuning of my Crusades which will make them better in these conditions, such as a 3 degree side edge bevel, say?
• Secondly, assuming some (most?) of the problem is down to technique, what do I need to do to retain edge hold with a slightly wider ski (given that the piste ski didn't have the slipping problem)? Sorry I don't have any video of my skiing to show.
• Thirdly, is this an area where the current 'all-mountain' skis have improved markedly in recent years, such that a current equivalent of the Crusades would be better, perhaps less of a compromise? I'm in the UK and always fly to resorts (usually in the Alps) so unfortunately cannot realistically have a 'quiver' of skis. If I were looking to replace the Scotts, I'd probably now be looking at something a little narrower, such as the Fischer ProMtn 86 or Nordica Navigator 85. I think in reality I'm always going to be skiing pistes more often than I am deep powder, and the edge-to-edge advantage of the narrower ski would be a boon.

 

[Sibhusky]

The 3° will help. Skinnier skis help as you're on edge faster. Newer skis help because they haven't lost torsional rigidity (how many days do you have on the ski, years are meaningless between one skier and another). A fresh edge even if it's a 2° is better than an edge from two weeks back, or two months, worse yet.

We mostly get snow here, especially this year, but my groomer skis are 82 under foot, have a 3° bevel, turning radius of 15. And if we mostly had ice, they'd be narrower. And probably stiffer.

 

[crgildart]

Also depends on how we define "ice". True water frozen solid ice rather than just extremely hard packed and scraped hardpack ice is something most mortal skis won't allow for any pivoting or sudden lateral force to hold on. Best to use forward momentum across those sections and only carve the radius of the ski on carefully. Don't over commit on that. Good gear and good tuning will allow you to push harder on the packed and scraped ice for sure though..

 

[trailtrimmer]

The crusade is an all wood ski with no metal correct? I'm yet to meet a 90+ MM ski with no metal or carbon/unobtanium layers that wow me on ice. Doing a 3 degree edge will help if it's a 1/2, but not all that much.

Having a quiver of a 74 to 84mm front side ski and the Scott for fresh/deep days would be ideal. The ProMTN 86 and Navigator 85 will offer better edge grip than the crusade, but something like a RTM 84 or Fischer Curv will have even more and bring more smiles on groomers.

 

[Jilly]

A fresh tune will certainly help. As would a stiffer, maybe narrower underfoot ski. I ski this stuff all the time and ski a tuned down race ski. I find 2 layers of metal too stiff for me.

You mentioned technique. When the ski moved away, did you find yourself sliding straight downhill or were the tip or tails leading?

 

[karlo]

3 degree side edge bevel,

I am happy with 3-degree/1-degree.

torsional rigidity

The crusade is an all wood ski with no metal correct?

For sure, a ski with metal layers will be torsionally more rigid and better on ice.

As for technique, here's a generality. Gradually roll the skis on edge and gradually build up edge angle and pressure to the maximum of the apex of the turn, usually sideways to the fall line and to the skier. Then, gradually release edge angle and pressure at finish of turn. Any suddenness of edge angle and pressure will more likely cause the skis to lose their grip. Imagine the turn to be a spring. The middle of the turn is the point of full compression. If not over compressed, the spring will make the build-up of the forces gradual; lower acceleration of force is a way to imagine it, though not technically correct. No spring, then its a sudden bang of a lot of force, and the edges don't hold.

Another way to imagine it. An object in space that needs to approach the sun, then be diverted and recovered. One can create a slingshot maneuver (the turn). The object gradually accelerates and reaches maximum velocity closest to the sun, then the velocity and momentum causes it to be flung outwards, resulting in gradual reduction of velocity. Or, the object can be flung straight at the sun. Then, at the closest approach, suddenly resist all that momentum to reverse the direction. What would be easier and gentler on the edges and the grip if we were skiing?

 

[cantunamunch]

Did anyone look at this:

I. I have to say that the boiler-plate stuff really caused me problems at times, as my downhill ski would frequently lose grip while cutting across the slope and slip down the hill a bit, particularly on the steeper stuff. Once you lose confidence that your edge is going to hold, of course, your skiing gets more defensive and problems are exacerbated. I'm wondering what part my technique plays in my problem and how much, if any, it's down to the skis.

and think: "CoM too far uphill"?

 

[François Pugh]

Most likely problems with technique AND gear.
A nice narrow (e.g. 68 mm) ski with metal in it and a 3 degree side bevel will hold a lot better on ice and hard packed scraped and polished boiler plate snow.
For technique, lots of counter balance (almost all weight on outside ski), and some counter rotation will aid in keeping that edge in, but you can only do so much with an old wide wooden ski; the edge flexes too much.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I put a 1-3 tune on my skis 90 underfoot and below and have never been sorry. Skiing on ice is something I've become used to but it has taken time. I think it's a combination of technique and equipment and a proper 1-3 tune goes a long way.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Once you loose confidence in the edge hold you end up in the backseat and everything goes to hell in a vicious cycle. I've been very confident on ice the last few years but this January something threw me off. I took a lesson and went back my ice skis and things are better now. Tune, tighten up the boots, take a lesson, do some planks.

 

[Scruffy]

Since you mentioned you were self-taught, why not invest in good front side carving skis and the next time you're in the Alps take lessons specifically for carving. Make sure to tell the instructor exactly what you're having difficulty with. It could be a whole new fun adventure for you. You might want to rent/demo/hire a ski for the lesson, and wait to make the ski purchase until after the lesson; you might have a better idea of what to look for in a ski afterwards, and the instructor might be able to give you a list of a some skis to look at for you ability.

 

[J2R]

Great responses, thanks!

Newer skis help because they haven't lost torsional rigidity (how many days do you have on the ski, years are meaningless between one skier and another).

Hard to say how many days - probably about 70-80. Other things to factor in are that I'm lightweight (142lb at 5'11"), and that I'm predominantly a carving skier who likes to bend the ski (although I lack the high level skills to do so as much as I'd like). One of these things presumably lengthens the life of the ski and the other reduces it.

True water frozen solid ice rather than just extremely hard packed and scraped hardpack ice is something most mortal skis won't allow for any pivoting or sudden lateral force to hold on. Best to use forward momentum across those sections and only carve the radius of the ski on carefully.

Yes, this was scraped hardpack, not the blue stuff (which would have me heading for one of the rather fine Austrian mountain restaurants instead). I was in fact carving across this (at least I thought I was) when the slips occurred. I always avoid trying to turn on the really glassy stuff.

The crusade is an all wood ski with no metal correct? I'm yet to meet a 90+ MM ski with no metal or carbon/unobtanium layers that wow me on ice. Doing a 3 degree edge will help if it's a 1/2, but not all that much.

Yes, it doesn't have any metal, as far as I can determine. What difference does this make, out of curiosity?

You mentioned technique. When the ski moved away, did you find yourself sliding straight downhill or were the tip or tails leading?

In general, I would say the whole ski.

As for technique, here's a generality. Gradually roll the skis on edge and gradually build up edge angle and pressure to the maximum of the apex of the turn, usually sideways to the fall line and to the skier. Then, gradually release edge angle and pressure at finish of turn. Any suddenness of edge angle and pressure will more likely cause the skis to lose their grip. Imagine the turn to be a spring. The middle of the turn is the point of full compression. If not over compressed, the spring will make the build-up of the forces gradual; lower acceleration of force is a way to imagine it, though not technically correct. No spring, then its a sudden bang of a lot of force, and the edges don't hold.

That rings true. I think maybe I was trying to be too sudden in my edge changes. I know also that when I could start the turn earlier, in the High C, there was less likelihood of losing an edge (although this was much easier to do on the narrower skis, which made everything much easier as well).

but you can only do so much with an old wide wooden ski; the edge flexes too much.

I'm never normally one to blame my equipment, but if I can do so even a little bit here, I'm happy! Certainly the Fischer Progressor 800s (which have titanal) were much easier to ski on the hardpack with.

Great food for thought there, everybody! I'll probably replace my skis AND improve my technique for this for the next time I go skiing.

 

[J2R]

As a follow-up, I'm wondering what would be the best length for me if I were to opt for the Nordica Navigators? As far as I can determine, it comes in 4 lengths, 165, 172, 179, 186. My Crusades are 169, so the natural choice would appear to be the 172. However I'm thinking that if I went for the 179 I might make up in length for the loss of flotation from going for the narrower width than my current skis. The Fischers I hired were 174 and I got on very well with them, so I can't imagine another 5 cm would make a huge difference.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Couple of simple things, tuned skis are a must (1/3 tune is fine). Just about any ski that has a side cut should be fine too.

Given those things ice, boiler plate, hard pack and the like generally show you up because you aren’t balanced, hence not edging correctly.

The tongue in cheek answer is “you can’t ski, ice just proves it” .

So tune and work on technique. The worst that’s going to happen is you’ll get better.

 

[PTskier]

-Very sharp edges help independent of the edge angles.
-The torsional rigidity of the skis matter. Not enough and they can't hold. Too much and they chatter more easily. Wider skis make the torsional rigidity part more difficult for the ski designer.
-Technique...You need more tip pressure. Pull your skis farther back under you at the very beginning of the turn. The turn radius is set in the upper 1/3rd of the turn. You need to start the turn correctly in order to finish it correctly. Smoothness matters a lot. Any movement that is abrupt will break the skis away from their grip. Find the balance front to back and side to side that works best for you and your skis. Don't lean toward the hill. Don't twist in the direction of the turn. Don't sit back. Do balance out over your outside ski. Do twist your body opposite to your direction of turn. Do stay up on the balls of your feet. As noted above, less weight on the inside ski is a help getting the outside ski to grip.

 

[LiquidFeet]

J2R said:
....the slopes were very hard, scraped and icy. ....the boiler-plate stuff really caused me problems
....my downhill ski would frequently lose grip while cutting across the slope and slip down the hill a bit, particularly on the steeper stuff.
....Jilly asked: When the ski moved away, did you find yourself sliding straight downhill or were the tip or tails leading?
....You answered: In general, I would say the whole ski.
....this was scraped hardpack... I was in fact carving across this (at least I thought I was) when the slips occurred.
....I think maybe I was trying to be too sudden in my edge changes.
....I don't have any video of my skiing to show
....I'm a self-taught skier having learned mainly via the PMTS method.
....I'm predominantly a carving skier (although I lack the high level skills to do so as much as I'd like)
....I know also that when I could start the turn earlier, in the High C, there was less likelihood of losing an edge.
....what do I need to do to retain edge hold with a slightly wider ski?


@J2R,
Here's what I hear you saying about your skiing in those quotes above.
You have taught yourself using PMTS methods, and you seek to carve all your turns.
You get successful turns sometimes, but not as often as you'd like. You are sometimes uncertain whether you are carving or not.
You can sometimes start a turn above the fall line (in the High C), and this prevents losing an edge.
You do not yet have video of your turns.

Here's the problem you are curious about.
A steep, skied-off groomer gave you problems, but you did fine on less-steep groomers.
On the steep boiler plate surface, your downhill ski would lose its grip and slip downhill at the end of your turns.
You suspect that the steepness and the surface conditions caused you to try to be too sudden as you started your new turns.

Here's what I think.
1. Your wide skis have a turn radius around 15 meters, which means they are not built to make short radius carved (arc-to-arc) turns on hardpack.
2. On a scraped-off groomer that feels steep, a skier who did not grow up in a racing program needs (bullet-proof) short radius turns for speed control.
3. Given the wide waist and radius of your skis, you're probably right - you rushed something as you tried to get the skis to make a short radius turn.
4. Your "rushing" may have gotten them to turn and point in the new direction fast, but something about that rushing caused the wash-out.
5. Jilly's question about what part of the ski washed out is very important. One thing can cause the tail wash, and another can cause the whole ski to wash.
6. If your whole ski slipped downhill, you probably were leaning into the hill (as cantunamunch mentioned upthread).
7. You may also have been facing the way the skis were pointed.
8. Those two things will put most of your weight on the uphill (inside, free) ski and make the downhill (outside, stance) ski slip away.
9. A rushed turn entry often involves turning the body in the direction of the new turn ahead of the skis, then leaning into the hill as the skis come around.
10. And that causes the outside ski wash-out.

If I've guessed right ...
and that's indeed what you did, then the cause was both the anatomy of your skis and your technique in dealing with them on this terrain. The skis resisted making a short radius turn when that's what you needed, and you responded with an ineffective set of alternative movements that intuition told you would work.

You should continue to work on building your technique, but get a pair of narrow waisted carving skis that will reward the movements you are choosing to learn. And video is a very useful tool.

 

[J2R]

LiquidFeet, I suspect you're pretty well spot-on with that very comprehensive and helpful response. At the moment I'm actually wondering about sticking with my existing skis (albeit with a 3 deg side edge angle) and hiring narrower waisted carving skis for those days when I know I'm largely going to be on the groomers. In European resorts they're much more likely to be available than wide skis to hire (particularly on days with new snow), so that way round seems a good idea.

 

[Jamt]

On really hard stuff you want something narrow:

 

[Eleeski]

One other factor to consider might be your physical flexibility and strength. I had a bad hip and ice was really difficult for me. I got a titanium hip and suddenly I could ski ice again!

Find a personal trainer, physical therapist or customized yoga to improve your flexibility and strength in your back, hips and legs. Even if that's not the root of your problem with ice, it will be good for your skiing (and you).

Eric

 

[J2R]

One other factor to consider might be your physical flexibility and strength.

Strength is unlikely to be the issue, as I have pretty strong legs (I'm a serious runner). But yes, flexibility might not be forte.