Pivot

[asolo]

How does one develop and learn to use appropriately the pivot (AKA stivot?) on steeps?

What I mean is the situation when the hill is too steep to arc all the way between gates and skiers throw and skis into the new line, let them bite and maybe ride a small arc.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The answer is complicated.
--There's doing an actual stivot. See the recent stivot thread for details. https://www.pugski.com/threads/whats-a-stivot-this-is-a-stivot.18177/
--There's also the useful topic of turns that are shorter in radius than what the ski will carve.

For both you'll need to learn to get your skis/feet/legs turning without at the same time turning your hips/torso. Some of the buzz words to search for information about this are:
--separation (upper body-lower body separation)
--counter
--counter acting
--counter balancing

 

[crgildart]

Hop turn, side slip, check
Hop turn, side slip, check.
repeat...

More subtle version is just unweighting but not actually bringing both skis off the snow when turning them.

Hockey stop right but don't quite finish it
Hockey stop left but don't quite finish it..

 

[Doug Briggs]

OP, Are you talking about racing or recreational skiing? Because if the latter, it is much easier to simply let the turn skid the whole time rather than to actually engage the edges for a carved turn. If you are not skiing against a clock why worry about carving the last bit of the turn?

 

[asolo]

OP, Are you talking about racing or recreational skiing? Because if the latter, it is much easier to simply let the turn skid the whole time rather than to actually engage the edges for a carved turn. If you are not skiing against a clock why worry about carving the last bit of the turn?

racing

 

[James]

You might have to stand up a little. Which would be a good thing.
Employing these tactics will prob make you slower btw. Maybe always or you get really good at it.
At slow speeds, out of course, practice a drift turn to hooking up on the edges. When doing it at speed, hook up at first so the skis are more downhill then across. So you don’t high side.

 

[Doug Briggs]

You might have to stand up a little. Which would be a good thing.
Employing these tactics will prob make you slower btw. Maybe always or you get really good at it.
At slow speeds, out of course, practice a drift turn to hooking up on the edges. When doing it at speed, hook up at first so the skis are more downhill then across. So you don’t high side.

Yes, but if you don't finish you can't win, so if you are going too fast or on the wrong line, this could save your race even if you lose a little time.

 

[James]

Yes, but if you don't finish you can't win, so if you are going too fast or on the wrong line, this could save your race even if you lose a little time.

I love how you talk about him winning!

 

[Doug Briggs]

I love how you talk about him winning!

The OP said he was asking regarding racing. Most people race to win, right?

Plus 'you can't win' isn't the same as 'you will win'.

That reminds me of a very sarcastic teacher's aid that took a point of a ten point assignment for calling a sort descending, when it was really non-ascending. Later that semester, the teacher lost it after the teacher's aid was less than polite in class and through a major league fastball at him with piece of chalk he was holding. He missed, but the action and the sound of the chalk disintegrating was quite satisfying.

 

[asolo]

The OP said he was asking regarding racing. Most people race to win, right?

I can't win: I live near Boulder. No matter what you do, there will be hundreds of people doing it better/faster/bigger.

Plus, somebody starting as an adult can never catch up to somebody that started as a kid and there a plenty of those folks around.

This is about not being able to ski a little less

 

[LiquidFeet]

@asolo, @Swede just posted something in another thread that may help you. Click on this post and take a look at the video. The hands-behind-the-body drill is clearly shown, and should help you get some things embedded in your skiing that will help you. Pretend you are in middle school as you do the drill and in a race camp with kids from your school. Role-play! Be the kid you wish you had been, and do it today.

How to increase your edge angle?

Hmm... couldn't you say that the figure labeled "Angulated" is "inclined with angulation", or "lower body inclined, with upper body also angulated" Yep.

www.pugski.com

 

[Doug Briggs]

I can't win: I live near Boulder. No matter what you do, there will be hundreds of people doing it better/faster/bigger.

Plus, somebody starting as an adult can never catch up to somebody that started as a kid and there a plenty of those folks around.

This is about not being able to ski a little less

In Masters racing you aren't necessarily racing against the kids. We have age classes so that you compete against people your own age, as well as Sportage which is age-adjusted.

We also have lots of people who just get into racing and skiing for that matter at a later age. Our oldest racer is 82 years old and only started racing about 10 years ago. He rocks.

 

[Johnny V.]

can't win: I live near Boulder. No matter what you do, there will be hundreds of people doing it better/faster/bigger.

Plus, somebody starting as an adult can never catch up to somebody that started as a kid and there a plenty of those folks around.

And there will always be someone worse/slower/smaller. Take your lumps and strive to get better. I started at age 50 and there are people I'm never going to beat, but so what! In our local beer league there are guys in my age group that I'm constantly 5-6 seconds ahead of. They still show up every week and work to improve as do I.
Due to racing I'm a much better skier at age 67 than I was before I started. There's been tons of good advice given on this forum-time to take advantage of it!

 

[Philpug]

I came in expecting talk of the upcoming Look Pivot 15...leaving disappointed. #bringbackthe15

 

[JESinstr]

OP, Are you talking about racing or recreational skiing? Because if the latter, it is much easier to simply let the turn skid the whole time rather than to actually engage the edges for a carved turn. If you are not skiing against a clock why worry about carving the last bit of the turn?

Fair point but check out Sebastien Michel executing a couple of Recreational Stivots beginning at 1:20 in the below vid.
Not withstanding your point, practicing Stivots teaches you a lot about the difference between carving mechanics and slipping/skidding mechanics.

 

[Doug Briggs]

On softer snow the engagement is generally more forgiving than on a race course. That said it is a useful maneuver just about anywhere that can save your bacon and/or the race.

It is a challenging move and really reveals your control of your edges.

 

[razie]

Well - if the racer can't arc to arc and he doesn't blow out, then the racer did something other than arc to arc...

It can be redirection, stivoting etc. I don't like "Pivoting" as it is too generic - you can feather and redirect the skis in many ways...

Likewise, the recreational skier - they don't have the issue with turning on a specific line, but if he or she can't control the speed with arc to arc on the given slope, then they'll do something other than arc to arc. Be it redirection, stivoting, hop turns etc.

Other than a racer chopping off the line, they're all variations of mini-hockey-stops! Anyone can do hockey stops...

Plain physics: skiing is about direction and speed control... and they're both about ski-snow interaction.

@asolo - if you don't re-engage the skis, it's just one big steered turn. So, the best way to learn stivots is to focus on carving . Then do hockey stops without actually stopping. Then do them more to the side.

 

[jimtransition]

@asolo - if you don't re-engage the skis, it's just one big steered turn. So, the best way to learn stivots is to focus on carving . Then do hockey stops without actually stopping. Then do them more to the side.

This.

The hard part of stivoting isn't the skidding part, it's hooking the edges back up into a clean carve very quickly.

If you're running recreational GS courses on cheater skis, just focus on carving better.

 

[asolo]

This.

The hard part of stivoting isn't the skidding part, it's hooking the edges back up into a clean carve very quickly.

If you're running recreational GS courses on cheater skis, just focus on carving better.

What triggered the question was somewhat a steeper course. I watched a bunch of U19s doing it and most stivoted to some degree. I'd try to arc and either just barely make it, or blow out. Granted, real skiers were going a lot faster and on straighter skis. For now, cleanly arc'ing that slope is beyond my ability.

Yes, I think the hard part is to be forward enough to cleanly transition to an arc. I was curious about training for this, since most of the online instruction is focused on something else.

 

[Johnny V.]

I'm sure the real coaches and instructors will have a better description, but my suggestion (easier said than done) would be to try to ski a higher, safer line. It may be slower, but as @dougbriggs said, if you don't finish you've got nothing.....................