North Face Warranty WWYD

[Wade]

I bought a North Face A-CAD jacket last season. For functionality, waterproofness and breathability it’s a great jacket. It was the second to top of the line shell jacket in their Summit Series range last season and was $600. It looks like they’ve renamed it the Verbier for this year and upped the price to $650.

I wore it about 20 days last season and noticed in the last few days I wore it that the face fabric on the sleeves and on the pockets had started to wear through where they had rubbed against each other just in normal movement (e.g. arms swinging when walking). It continued to get worse to the point it’s pretty noticeable on the jacket and I presume will get worse as it wears further. Here’s a pic of the pocket area:

So it pretty clearly (to me at least) is a warranty issue. I sent the jacket in and it was retuned to me saying it was normal wear and tear and not covered under warranty. I had some back and forth with the warranty department, and they asked me to send it back in for another evaluation.

I sent the jacket in again and this time it came back saying the damage was “cuts and abrasions” and not covered under the warranty.

The limited lifetime warranty states that products are warranted against defects in materials, which this to me clearly is. Surely they can’t claim with a straight face that the materials in a $600 ski jacket are only designed to hold up to 15 days of normal use before breaking down? I have similarly priced Arcteryx and Patagonia jackets that look brand new after 100 days. It seems ridiculous that the jacket is wearing out in 20 days and seems like it will get worse.

In addition to general venting, I guess I’m looking for some less subjective input on:

Am I being reasonable in my expectations for the jacket?

Should this issue be covered under warranty?

What should my next steps be after The North Face twice declined to do anything about it?

 

[Max Capacity]

Yes, call TNF and talk with them. I have had a number of their products repaired under the lifetime warranty. I've been wearing TNF since 1991. I must have a dozen of their products that I still wear, some from the 90's still work great.

 

[wiread]

I just called them on a jacket I bought in the mid 90's. My wife hated that jacket, loud black and yellow, but i bought it because it was the only one on the rack that gave me all the room I wanted and fit well. FF all these years and she put me in a different one from the NorthFace and it's ok, but i like my old one better. No restrictions, especially zipped up near the face. I just like it better. but the zipper is shot, so i'm sending it back. They can bill me for a new zipper, I hope they do, I feel bad sending it in after so long, but I love it

But I had another fleece from them, I cut it with a hack saw on accident. Right across the pocket. That too had a zipper issue, sent it in for the zipper they fixed the big cut I put in it and hadn't said anything about too.

 

[Lauren]

Yes, I think you're being reasonable in your expectation, and yes, with the information you've provided, I would have expected that to be covered under warranty.

Your third question is a tough one, given that they've already assessed the jacket and declined to do anything.

I had a warranty issue with their ACAD jacket the first year they put their FutureLight out on the market...it was really easy, they didn't have a jacket in stock in my size, so they gave me credit for a new one the following season. So honestly, I'm a bit surprised they haven't helped you out here. Maybe try one last time and give them a call...third time's the charm? Did you purchase directly from their website? Or through a shop? If you bought it at a shop, I'd see if they can work any magic on a warranty.

 

[scott43]

Paging @Analisa

 

[MissySki]

Wow, I'm quite surprised to hear this. I've had good interactions with North Face's warranty department. One was a ski jacket where the zipper broke after one season, they didn't and they repaired. The second wasn't a ski jacket, but I sent back a long down coat that was losing feathers constantly really fast with barely any use. Obviously down sheds, but it was actually making largish holes in the outer material and looked horrible. Anyway, I didn't want a replacement for it when they couldn't fix it so they gave me a credit and I got a different version with a tougher outer that I love and haven't had any problem with.

I would also call and try to speak to someone, can't hurt.

For what it's worth also, I had a Goretex shell that I wore the heck out of for YEARS before it got a couple of wear marks like the ones you have pictured. So that's amazingly quick for yours if nothing else abrasive caused it.

 

[Flo]

I only got great experiences with tnf support. My brigandine futurelight jacket (the one i have on my profile pic) was not repelling water anymore on the shoulders. I sent it back and got a gift card of the retail value of the jacket.

 

[Tony S]

I bought a North Face A-CAD jacket last season. For functionality, waterproofness and breathability it’s a great jacket. It was the second to top of the line shell jacket in their Summit Series range last season and was $600. It looks like they’ve renamed it the Verbier for this year and upped the price to $650.

I wore it about 20 days last season and noticed in the last few days I wore it that the face fabric on the sleeves and on the pockets had started to wear through where they had rubbed against each other just in normal movement (e.g. arms swinging when walking). It continued to get worse to the point it’s pretty noticeable on the jacket and I presume will get worse as it wears further. Here’s a pic of the pocket area:

View attachment 185006

So it pretty clearly (to me at least) is a warranty issue. I sent the jacket in and it was retuned to me saying it was normal wear and tear and not covered under warranty. I had some back and forth with the warranty department, and they asked me to send it back in for another evaluation.

I sent the jacket in again and this time it came back saying the damage was “cuts and abrasions” and not covered under the warranty.

The limited lifetime warranty states that products are warranted against defects in materials, which this to me clearly is. Surely they can’t claim with a straight face that the materials in a $600 ski jacket are only designed to hold up to 15 days of normal use before breaking down? I have similarly priced Arcteryx and Patagonia jackets that look brand new after 100 days. It seems ridiculous that the jacket is wearing out in 20 days and seems like it will get worse.

In addition to general venting, I guess I’m looking for some less subjective input on:

Am I being reasonable in my expectations for the jacket?

Should this issue be covered under warranty?

What should my next steps be after The North Face twice declined to do anything about it?

The conclusion I reach from this thread is that you should have a female friend or family member call in for you.

 

[neonorchid]

Did you try a physical TNF store? New York huh, can you come to Philly, King of Prussia Mall TNF store? If so bring it there, or try any other TNF store, preferably not one in a big city, I get the idea they are typical designer store retail employes, not outdoorsy and cater more to label wearing fashion victims,
Unless things have changed since Covid, you should make out in store, I always have in the past.
Btw, definitly do not say anything about your prior attempt with TNF CS. I would mention in conversation that you're heading to the wet PNW to ski in a few days and need a reliable shell, could add that you're from out of town flying out of Philly PHL, or not. IME, the managers at K of P mall store are good, most likely will look it up, find the org MSRP and offer you the option to get something in the store - I haven't been there since before Covid but recall them having just about the full line of Summit Series winter kit in store this time of year.

 

[neonorchid]

Paging @Analisa

she doesn't like the company - personal reasons IIRC on a profesional level mentioned somewhere in a prior thread

 

[coskigirl]

You could go the SM route and and ping them on Twitter but I tend to do that only as a last resort.

 

[crgildart]

I get similar cuts on my sleeves and front of my jacket, especially the shoulders, from fumbling around repositioning my skis when carrying them a long ways to and from the car.

 

[scott43]

she doesn't like the company - personal reasons IIRC on a profesional level mentioned somewhere in a prior thread

Oop. Had no idea. Apologies!!

 

[hrstrat57]

It’s a $600 garment you far from being unreasonable IMO. I’d be super unhappy with that wear on a high end jacket.

 

[Wade]

Thanks for the input. I called the warranty department's customer service line and didn't really get anywhere. The lady I spoke to was nice and is trying to help, but she wasn't empowered to do anything other than to ask the people who already denied the warranty claim twice to reconsider. She said I should hear back in a few days.

To respond to a few comments:

Did you purchase directly from their website? Or through a shop? If you bought it at a shop, I'd see if they can work any magic on a warranty.

I bought it from Backcountry.com. That's a good idea. I'll give them a try if this latest attempt doesn't work out.

Did you try a physical TNF store? New York huh, can you come to Philly, King of Prussia Mall TNF store? If so bring it there, or try any other TNF store, preferably not one in a big city, I get the idea they are typical designer store retail employes, not outdoorsy and cater more to label wearing fashion victims,
Unless things have changed since Covid, you should make out in store, I always have in the past.
Btw, definitly do not say anything about your prior attempt with TNF CS. I would mention in conversation that you're heading to the wet PNW to ski in a few days and need a reliable shell, could add that you're from out of town flying out of Philly PHL, or not. IME, the managers at K of P mall store are good, most likely will look it up, find the org MSRP and offer you the option to get something in the store - I haven't been there since before Covid but recall them having just about the full line of Summit Series winter kit in store this time of year.

I guess things there have changed since COVID. There's a North Face retail stall in the mall a couple of miles from my house and another one at the base of the mountain where we have a condo. Both times I've returned the jacket, I filled out the warranty form and the store sent the form and the jacket to their warranty department in Texas. I was half expecting the store employee to just take care of it there and then, but I guess that's no longer the policy. It seems like someone analyzed the cost of warranty claims, decided that taking a harder line could shave x% of that expense, and decided to make it harder for customers to get something replaced or repaired under warranty. It feels a lot like dealing with a crappy insurance company where the first move is always to deny the claim and hope that some percentage of the claims just disappear.

You could go the SM route and and ping them on Twitter but I tend to do that only as a last resort.

Yeah, I thought about it, but that's not something I usually do either.

I get similar cuts on my sleeves and front of my jacket, especially the shoulders, from fumbling around repositioning my skis when carrying them a long ways to and from the car.

That's not what it is in this case. The wear pattern is in the same place on both sides of the jacket and there are corresponding wear marks on the sleeves and cuffs where they've rubbed against the pockets when walking. I've also been able to watch these go from the fabric looking a bit worn, to small holes appearing in it, to being completely worn through and significant areas of face fabric missing over the last few weeks of the season as it continued to wear.

 

[Tony S]

Thanks for the input. I called the warranty department's customer service line and didn't really get anywhere. The lady I spoke to was nice and is trying to help, but she wasn't empowered to do anything other than to ask the people who already denied the warranty claim twice to reconsider. She said I should hear back in a few days.

To respond to a few comments:




I bought it from Backcountry.com. That's a good idea. I'll give them a try if this latest attempt doesn't work out.



I guess things there have changed since COVID. There's a North Face retail stall in the mall a couple of miles from my house and another one at the base of the mountain where we have a condo. Both times I've returned the jacket, I filled out the warranty form and the store sent the form and the jacket to their warranty department in Texas. I was half expecting the store employee to just take care of it there and then, but I guess that's no longer the policy. It seems like someone analyzed the cost of warranty claims, decided that taking a harder line could shave x% of that expense, and decided to make it harder for customers to get something replaced or repaired under warranty. It feels a lot like dealing with a crappy insurance company where the first move is always to deny the claim and hope that some percentage of the claims just disappear.



Yeah, I thought about it, but that's not something I usually do either.



That's not what it is in this case. The wear pattern is in the same place on both sides of the jacket and there are corresponding wear marks on the sleeves and cuffs where they've rubbed against the pockets when walking. I've also been able to watch these go from the fabric looking a bit worn, to small holes appearing in it, to being completely worn through and significant areas of face fabric missing over the last few weeks of the season as it continued to wear.

I have no patience with the kind of BS described here, when you've been following channels and getting stonewalled. I would be asking peoples names and getting their bosses' names and THEIR bosses names. Go to NF pages and find out names of executives Then I would not hesitate to go to social media and VERY POLITELY use the names of the highest-ups repeatedly. Link to their LinkedIn profiles. I had to do that with a bank that owed me money and was stonewalling. I had a FedEx envelope with a check in 36 hours.

 

[Analisa]

I don’t have any beef with TNF. I think Futurelight got overhyped and overpriced - working with Gore is expensive and annoying. They’re saving a ton of money by sticking to proprietary membranes and I think most brands have historically passed some of those discounts on to the customer. But they sell more than rain gear. And I’m a big proponent of shopping by specs, not by brand.

So on to this jacket. It’d be helpful to see where on the jacket this is happening in addition to the close up. But overall, your expectations that it last multiple seasons of frequent wear are totally reasonable. They’re using a 75 denier polyester, which is a lot weaker than the 20-100 denier nylon most peer jackets are using. No info on what kind of knit or weave they’re using for the face fabric, but 175 g/sm. That puts it competing directly against the Patagonia Snowdrifter (75d, 5 oz/yd or ~170 g/sm, recycled polyester Ripstop). Even if it were priced lower at Snowdrifter kind of pricing, combing through reviews, it seems like similar fabric platforms are holding up to more wear and tear.

I can see how they’re denying a warranty claim. They’re only covering manufacturing defects. It doesn’t cover bad design choices and unreasonable price points. If they can pin the issue on your use of the garment, most brands with that type of verbiage will.

I second the advice to reach out to the retailer, and I’d also leave a review on the new model. (Don’t openly state it’s the old version, they’ll legally have to publish it. But the close up pictures are fine to add). But the women’s model looks like it got plenty of poor reviews about durability, so not sure that they’ll care. The FTC, state attorney general, or small claims court would also be avenues of escalation if you’re not ready to cut your losses. Just know that repair or replacement with the same jacket is usually Plan A for brands and doesn’t fix the issue for long.

 

[crgildart]

That's not what it is in this case. The wear pattern is in the same place on both sides of the jacket and there are corresponding wear marks on the sleeves and cuffs where they've rubbed against the pockets when walking. I've also been able to watch these go from the fabric looking a bit worn, to small holes appearing in it, to being completely worn through and significant areas of face fabric missing over the last few weeks of the season as it continued to wear.

So, it is "wear and tear". That said, I agree no jacket be it $60 or $600 should wear through like that in less than 50 days. It's a poor design, inferior materials. They can't fix it by giving you another jacket just like that one.

I used to manage luggage stores and we had a shop that did all the area airline damage claims..

Mosd didn't cover "wear and tear" or airline abuse under their "lifetime guarantee". Many would replace stuff that got wrecked on the first trip though.. I'm talking Hartmann and Tumi here too.

 

[Wade]

I don’t have any beef with TNF. I think Futurelight got overhyped and overpriced - working with Gore is expensive and annoying. They’re saving a ton of money by sticking to proprietary membranes and I think most brands have historically passed some of those discounts on to the customer. But they sell more than rain gear. And I’m a big proponent of shopping by specs, not by brand.

So on to this jacket. It’d be helpful to see where on the jacket this is happening in addition to the close up. But overall, your expectations that it last multiple seasons of frequent wear are totally reasonable. They’re using a 75 denier polyester, which is a lot weaker than the 20-100 denier nylon most peer jackets are using. No info on what kind of knit or weave they’re using for the face fabric, but 175 g/sm. That puts it competing directly against the Patagonia Snowdrifter (75d, 5 oz/yd or ~170 g/sm, recycled polyester Ripstop). Even if it were priced lower at Snowdrifter kind of pricing, combing through reviews, it seems like similar fabric platforms are holding up to more wear and tear.

I can see how they’re denying a warranty claim. They’re only covering manufacturing defects. It doesn’t cover bad design choices and unreasonable price points. If they can pin the issue on your use of the garment, most brands with that type of verbiage will.

I second the advice to reach out to the retailer, and I’d also leave a review on the new model. (Don’t openly state it’s the old version, they’ll legally have to publish it. But the close up pictures are fine to add). But the women’s model looks like it got plenty of poor reviews about durability, so not sure that they’ll care. The FTC, state attorney general, or small claims court would also be avenues of escalation if you’re not ready to cut your losses. Just know that repair or replacement with the same jacket is usually Plan A for brands and doesn’t fix the issue for long.

Thanks for the input. Here are a couple of additional pics. It shows where on the jacket the issues are (although a bit far away to be able to see much) and then a closer shot of where the cuff is rubbing against the pocket / side of the jacket (which is a bit easier to see on the cuff on the side that shows less wear on the pocket).

The warranty says defects in materials as well as manufacturing. I guess they could (and have) claimed it's general wear and tear, but I would argue it's a material defect in that it's a high end jacket designed for snow sports, and the material on this particular jacket couldn't hold up to less than 20 days of rubbing against itself let alone rubbing against something hard and abrasive like an icy groomer or a tree.

I'll push it a bit further to see if TNF will ultimately do the right thing here, but I'm not going to spend more of my time than the jacket is worth to "win" this battle. If I can't get a good outcome from TNF, I'll probably just sell the jacket if anyone wants it and it will have been my last TNF purchase. It's a shame because I've had some good experiences with their gear over the years and I really like the people in The North Face shop at my home mountain, but I won't support a company that won't do the right thing by its customers when there's an issue. I've never run into an issue like this with Arcteryx, Patagonia or Outdoor Research over the years, and on the very rare occasion something wasn't up to scratch, it's been taken care of without having to jump through hoops like I've had to with TNF over this. It seems like a no-brainer where I should and shouldn't be spending my money.

 

[Wade]

So, it is "wear and tear". That said, I agree no jacket be it $60 or $600 should wear through like that in less than 50 days. It's a poor design, inferior materials. They can't fix it by giving you another jacket just like that one.

I used to manage luggage stores and we had a shop that did all the area airline damage claims..

Mosd didn't cover "wear and tear" or airline abuse under their "lifetime guarantee". Many would replace stuff that got wrecked on the first trip though.. I'm talking Hartmann and Tumi here too.

Yeah, it's definitely wear and tear. My position is that the wear is premature and the materials are defective and not fit for purpose on my jacket.

I guess technically anything could be attributed to wear and tear. If this was evident after a day rather than 20 days, it could still technically be wear and tear. Zipper stops working after zipping up the jacket a few times - wear and tear on the zipper. Sleeve falls off - wear and tear from putting your arm in and out of the sleeve too often.

Maybe they can, and probably will, successfully argue that it's not covered under warranty and correctly gamble on the fact that I won't take them to small claims court or wage an all out social media campaign to get my $600 worth. It's just a shitty way to conduct yourself as a company though. While they won't actually care or notice that I'll spend my few thousand dollars outfitting my family elsewhere in the next couple of years, it would have cost them a lot less just to say sorry your jacket didn't hold up well and we'll eat our cost of $100 to send you a new one.