Need help to begin carving

[slowrider]

Back seat is unhelpful; it's the front edges that do the initial cutting (ski is moving forwards into the snow); it's the front edges that need weight on them to work.

That's about it in a nutshell.

 

[JDT]

@JDT,
Check out the amount of time and distance you use to get the skis to point in the new direction. You do that redirection pretty quick. Compare that amount of time and distance to when you are going across the slope. You spend more time heading across the slope than going "around the corner." Corner, traverse, corner, traverse.

If you are carving, there will be no "corner." Skis that are tipped but not rotated go in the direction they are pointed, and they bend. So they follow the curve the bending creates. The tail follows the tip, and both stay in the same groove. Their change of direction is continuous with the transition, the connecting part from one turn to the other. There will be no distinction between going "around the corner" and going across the slope.

Your video shows you rushing the part of the turn that involves getting the skis to point in the new direction. You are "making" the skis point in the new direction to start the new turn. You rotate the skis, go straight, then rotate them in the other direction, go straight. AKA corner, straight, corner, straight.

Watch your video to separate the "turning" portion of your turns from the "heading across the hill" portion. These two things are discreet in your turns. They are not seamlessly connected. In other words, you are rotating the skis to point in the new direction. This is undoubtedly an old habit, deeply embedded. When you rotate the skis, you are not carving. Your rotation moves the skis out from any groove in the snow the skis might be trying to make.

Embrace "purge the pivot" as your mantra. It's your goal to tip the skis and NOT rotate them. Overwriting the old rotary habit with tipping is difficult to do. It takes time, patience, and concentration to replace that old habit. It takes "work" on very easy terrain.

Get yourself down to the beginner terrain, head straight down the hill with the five year olds, and just tip both skis at the same time. Tip them left then tip them right, no pause between. Do NOT try to make turns happen. See what the skis do when all you do is tip them.

Once you succeed in just tipping them, with no rotation at all, you will gain speed at an uncomfortable rate. That's what you're after. When you get going too fast, do a hockey stop, push the reset button, and start again. Work on purging that ingrained pivot. Once you are able to eliminate any rotation of the skis, focus on how fast your speed increases. And avoid the five year olds.

Also focus on what the interaction between the skis and the snow feels like. It's quite different from what you are feeling in that video you just posted. Pay attention to how much different the sensation of ski-snow interaction is. If you don't feel a "WOW that sure is different," then you are not yet carving.

Once carving, you'll know that there must something you don't know yet that will allow you to control your speed gain. You will not want to do this carving on the slope in the video you just posted. There's more to carving than just purging the pivot.

Get video of your runs down the bunny slope (from below, from the side, and from above). Come back here, post that video of you on the bunny slope, and ask the collective how to avoid hitting terminal velocity before slamming into the base lodge.

Will be trying this today on a shallower pitch run. The couple of times I tried only using tipping on the steeper pitch resulted in huge, narrow arcs building lots of speed quickly. Is there a consensus on wether or not to lead tipping with the inside leg?

Usually when I try to tip using inside leg first, my stance widens (because the outside is not yet weighted), and because my stance widens, the inside edge angle is lost and not equal to the outside angle. Essentially loosing any edge angle I was building before the outside was weighted. If that makes sense.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Will be trying this today on a shallower pitch run. The couple of times I tried only using tipping on the steeper pitch resulted in huge, narrow arcs building lots of speed quickly. Is there a consensus on wether or not to lead tipping with the inside leg?

Usually when I try to tip using inside leg first, my stance widens (because the outside is not yet weighted), and because my stance widens, the inside edge angle is lost and not equal to the outside angle. Essentially loosing any edge angle I was building before the outside was weighted. If that makes sense.

View attachment 222713 View attachment 222714
View attachment 222717

First, are these images of an attempt at a weighted release, or a non-weighted release?

In either case, you are having difficulty tipping the old outside ski/new inside ski onto its LTE. The visual clues are that your new inside knee stays close to the other leg and your new inside foot wanders away. You end up a bit knock-kneed with the new inside ski flat.

The way to get that new inside ski to tip to its LTE is to start with tipping the foot at the ankle inside the boot. Do that first. Then tip the lower leg, which tips the boot cuff. To tip the lower leg, move that new inside/old outside knee away from the other leg. You'll be going a bit bow-legged if you keep the tipped foot near the other foot. You won't go knock-kneed.

Do this for both a regular flexed release (where you lighten the new inside ski to transfer weight immediately) and a weighted release (where you keep it weighted).

If you succeed in tipping the foot to its LTE inside the boot then you go bow-legged (not much, just a little), then your foot will stay close to the other foot and you'll no longer have that widening stance an a non-tipped, flat, new inside ski.

It's essential to keep the feet close to each other to succeed.

If you keep your weight on the old outside/new inside ski, you may glide a bit on its LTE.

 

[Chris V.]

Usually when I try to tip using inside leg first, my stance widens (because the outside is not yet weighted)....

The solution for this is self-evident.

 

[KevinF]

Will be trying this today on a shallower pitch run. The couple of times I tried only using tipping on the steeper pitch resulted in huge, narrow arcs building lots of speed quickly. Is there a consensus on wether or not to lead tipping with the inside leg?

Usually when I try to tip using inside leg first, my stance widens (because the outside is not yet weighted), and because my stance widens, the inside edge angle is lost and not equal to the outside angle. Essentially loosing any edge angle I was building before the outside was weighted. If that makes sense.

View attachment 222713 View attachment 222714
View attachment 222717

As you are discovering, you can not effectively tip a ski that is weighted. You should be able to hold your inside ski up throughout the duration of a turn

Yes, all turns -- at least all effective turns -- start by moving the inside foot first. Whether you're making a slow steered turn or you're making a high performance carved turn -- the right tip moving right is the start of a right hand turn. Right tip right to go right, left tip left to go left.

 

[tube77]

In the videos, you are not making carved turns at all. Edges are not engaged in the snow. Carved turns means the tail of the skis follow the exact path of the tip traveled forward.
Here are some sequential drills that I introduce in my lessons.

1. Sharpen you edges
2. Side slipping with edge set
3. One Garland across the hill
4. One railroad track across the hill
5. Check if you leave two clean arcs in the snow without smearing
6. Proceed to linked railroad track about one groomer width

Make sure that you do these drills on a gentle beginner terrain and activate your ankle first when tipping.
Try on even more flatter terrain so that you can’t cheat with speed.

if you become comfortable with railroad tracks, then come back and post another video.

 

[Mike King]

As you are discovering, you can not effectively tip a ski that is weighted. You should be able to hold your inside ski up throughout the duration of a turn

Yes, all turns -- at least all effective turns -- start by moving the inside foot first. Whether you're making a slow steered turn or you're making a high performance carved turn -- the right tip moving right is the start of a right hand turn. Right tip right to go right, left tip left to go left.

This is not true. Of course you can tip a ski that is weighted. And not all effective turns start with tipping the new inside ski.

 

[JDT]

Day 3 progress: I practiced over and over on a green run today just tipping. I still realize my inside foot doesn’t have discipline yet. Conditions: 40 degrees and soggy.

 

[tomahawkins]

And not all effective turns start with tipping the new inside ski.

I was going to say...

 

[Mike King]

Day 3 progress: I practiced over and over on a green run today just tipping. I still realize my inside foot doesn’t have discipline yet. Conditions: 40 degrees and soggy.

Nice effort. However, you need to be in a narrower stance. And first things first, until you learn how to be centered on your ski, all of this other stuff is a distraction. You do not get to an athletic stance until the end of the video and I mean the absolute end of the video.

If you want to progress, you will not make significant progress until you fix your stance.
'
Mike

 

[JDT]

Nice effort. However, you need to be in a narrower stance. And first things first, until you learn how to be centered on your ski, all of this other stuff is a distraction. You do not get to an athletic stance until the end of the video and I mean the absolute end of the video.

If you want to progress, you will not make significant progress until you fix your stance.
'
Mike

Ok I'll focus on that as a main priority coming up.

 

[tomahawkins]

Here is a video from today after some more thought. Please excuse the lack of pole planting and arm movements. My one thing was I wanted to focus more on pulling my uphill boot back.
View attachment 222654

Way to keep after it! Just keep doing what you're doing. You're going to be awesome.

 

[teejaywhy]

@JDT Wasn't going to chime in because I'm not an instructor, nor am I able to detail the movements in writing, however, yesterday I stumbled across a YouTube video that demonstrates exactly the lesson I received that helped me begin to use my edges and start carving. I'm a visual learner, so hopefully this is helpful for you.

All these drills should be done on easy groomed slopes.

Start the video at 4:28 "Drill 2 Toppling" This is demonstrating how to use lower legs/ankles to tip the ski and get the feeling alternating between a flat ski and and edged ski.
The next movement she calls" Garlands," (6:10). I don't get what she means about the chewing gum, but the drill takes the toppling technique and moves across and slightly down the hill. Again, lower legs/ankles to alternate between a flat ski and edged ski and feeling the edge and the sidecut of the ski creating the turn. Best wishes for your ski journey!

 

[tube77]

Day 3 progress: I practiced over and over on a green run today just tipping. I still realize my inside foot doesn’t have discipline yet. Conditions: 40 degrees and soggy.

Try to initiate the tipping from your inside ski or drive your inside knee front-diagonal direction while you are rolling out the inside ankle.
Again tipping should be initiate from the subtle ankle movement.

 

[dj61]

Why not start with solid parallel turns?

 

[JDT]

Nice effort. However, you need to be in a narrower stance. And first things first, until you learn how to be centered on your ski, all of this other stuff is a distraction. You do not get to an athletic stance until the end of the video and I mean the absolute end of the video.

If you want to progress, you will not make significant progress until you fix your stance.
'
Mike

Mike,

Check out this good quote I found from effectiveskiing...I think it hits exactly at what you were saying:

"Extension. The extension will disconnect you from the snow - even if you manage to keep the skis in contact, your hips are launched up and unable to control pressure until you get "back down" or land back on the skis.

The other drawback, already mentioned, is that you cannot tip the skis on edge from the feet, when the knee is not flexed. This explains why those skiers that extend or hop to release will also prefer steering and hip-dumping as opposed to foot tipping and that's why this is such a big deal. It really is as simple as that.

The other problem with the extension is that you are pressuring the skis at the end of the turn - you have to, in order to "hop". This will not allow you to tip the skis early, so it will delay your turns." -Effectiveskiing

 

[JDT]

@JDT Wasn't going to chime in because I'm not an instructor, nor am I able to detail the movements in writing, however, yesterday I stumbled across a YouTube video that demonstrates exactly the lesson I received that helped me begin to use my edges and start carving. I'm a visual learner, so hopefully this is helpful for you.

All these drills should be done on easy groomed slopes.

Start the video at 4:28 "Drill 2 Toppling" This is demonstrating how to use lower legs/ankles to tip the ski and get the feeling alternating between a flat ski and and edged ski.
The next movement she calls" Garlands," (6:10). I don't get what she means about the chewing gum, but the drill takes the toppling technique and moves across and slightly down the hill. Again, lower legs/ankles to alternate between a flat ski and edged ski and feeling the edge and the sidecut of the ski creating the turn. Best wishes for your ski journey!

Thanks for this! I agree with what he was saying and I look similar to the skier in the video actually lol. Im a visual learner too, however is there any debate on "cross under" or "cross over" techniques for getting your skis transitioned edge to edge? To me, toppling means cross over...is this what you feel when you transition? I have been trying to flex on release and let the skis cross under my center of mass.

 

[teejaywhy]

Thanks for this! I agree with what he was saying and I look similar to the skier in the video actually lol. Im a visual learner too, however is there any debate on "cross under" or "cross over" techniques for getting your skis transitioned edge to edge? To me, toppling means cross over...is this what you feel when you transition? I have been trying to flex on release and let the skis cross under my center of mass.

@JDT Sorry - I don't know what that means cross over or cross under. I guess I really don't think about where my center of mass is, I just try to stay balanced. As for edge to edge transition, I just unweight a bit and roll the ankles to tip to the new edge.

Get the edge set - carved arc part figured out first. Then work on the smooth transition turn to turn - that does take a bit of practice.

And definitely seek easy groomed runs to practice this technique. Mashed potatoes, ice or steeper pitches will not help.

 

[geepers]

Thanks for this! I agree with what he was saying and I look similar to the skier in the video actually lol. Im a visual learner too, however is there any debate on "cross under" or "cross over" techniques for getting your skis transitioned edge to edge? To me, toppling means cross over...is this what you feel when you transition? I have been trying to flex on release and let the skis cross under my center of mass.

@Mike King is correct - at this stage the #1 issue is stance. Any thoughts of cross-over/under are a distraction. A useful stance requires flex at the ankles, knees and hips.

There are many vids on youtube on basic athletic stance when skiing and this is a reasonable one. Turn on captions (CC button) with English for a translation although it's quite clear which of the demo skiers they are suggesting we copy.




As the vid says "A correct basic stance allows an alpine position to act and react which is crucial for free skiing and stable movement."

 

[dj61]

"Extension. The extension will disconnect you from the snow - even if you manage to keep the skis in contact, your hips are launched up and unable to control pressure until you get "back down" or land back on the skis.

This strawman keeps popping up. In the Austrian system (and the Italian) there is room for an upward movement in transition. But that is - as all instruction manuals will tell you - not really “up” it is an forward movement with the hips that brings the skier back in a central position and brings pressure to the tip of the ski. With respect to “disconnection from the snow” top skiers have no “connection” whatsoever with the snow during transition. There is a nice analysis from Tom Gellie in which he shows that Mikaela leaves no trails when free skiing in transition.