I’m not an instructor, but I agree with others in that you are not fwd enough. For me, to correct that, it’s as simple as moving your hands and arms. They are too low and too far back. Raise them so you see your hands in your peripheral vision.
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Need help to begin carving
- Thread starter JDT
- Start date
Said earlier by others. The tipped ski will not turn unless the front tip is pressured. So if you tip the ski and just accelerate without turning, it means you are aft. You are just riding the rail of a straight edge. You need to get forward to bend the front edge of the ski to have the ski start turning. This is why you are throwing your skis around. They won't turn you when you ski aft like you are.
To get forward, stand up as tall as you can on the skis. Then, pull your toes up. This will settle you against the front of the boot. Your hips and butt need to be well ahead of your heels.
Try doing some traverses as tall as you can stand and really exaggerate being as forward as you can. Perhaps even with your knees straight or just barely bent. You should get some lessons to work on this (being forward) in real time. Barring that, do some video of skiing in what you think "too far forward" means. Then back off from that position just an inch or two and you'll be close to the right spot.
To get forward, stand up as tall as you can on the skis. Then, pull your toes up. This will settle you against the front of the boot. Your hips and butt need to be well ahead of your heels.
Try doing some traverses as tall as you can stand and really exaggerate being as forward as you can. Perhaps even with your knees straight or just barely bent. You should get some lessons to work on this (being forward) in real time. Barring that, do some video of skiing in what you think "too far forward" means. Then back off from that position just an inch or two and you'll be close to the right spot.
Look at 0:26 - 0:27 in the first clip, you need to do more of that
Also-we have a common problem-dominating right leg and yeah I know exactly what you mean about the right turns. My right leg is so much stronger than the left one that I subconsciously try to basically ski on the right foot only
Right leg just won’t get out of the way and let the left one do some work.It takes practice-concentrate on the left leg, in a sense think with the left leg only, forget about the right one-it is big enough to take care of himself, tell him to shut up and retract on right turns and practice, practice, practice.
It will come eventually.
Well, this isn't true. When you tip the ski, you bend it into an arc because of the sidecut (the center is narrower than the tip and tail; tipping the ski while standing on it causes the center to deflect) -- if the ski is moving forward, it will turn. Depending on how aft on the ski you are standing, tipping the ski may have little arc resulting. Further, the tail of the ski usually has less of a side cut than the tip, so pressuring the tail and tipping the ski usually results is less of an arc and less turn than standing in the center of the ski.
Pressuring the tip of the ski lightens the tail, and results in the tails taking a wider arc than the tip.
It's physics.
Mike
Quick update. I've been working on hip greater mobility and improving my balance and stance. I've also been taking lessons with a great guy who coaches high school ski teams. Now that their season is over he has more time to do things like this on the side. I have my third lesson today and feel like I've made a few improvements in my overall stability and control.
Day 1 he wanted to focus on tipping and foot pressure points. Start forward and pressure naturally moves aft as the ski comes around finishing the arc.
Day 2 flexing more during transition and not popping up has helped my control WHEN to begin to carve the next turn. I can kind of place a turn initiation where I want it now.
Things to still work on from what I've seen in the video:
Steering with the inside foot because I don't have enough edge angle on it to match the outside foot. There are TWO trains of thought on this: Am I simply not paying enough attention focusing on the inside leg in the turn? Perhaps stance a little too wide? I'm guessing its an attention thing....and that I'm just letting it ride flatter as I pressure the outer ski. It feels like its on edge until I saw the video. Regardless, he doesn't think it will be a huge hinderance to progress and will be easy to clean up in the future lessons.
Before anybody says I'm still steering and pivoting, watch the outside leg and it is clearly carving and the response I'm getting from the ski feels that way also.
Might be the last update or two of the season until this November.
Day 1 he wanted to focus on tipping and foot pressure points. Start forward and pressure naturally moves aft as the ski comes around finishing the arc.
Day 2 flexing more during transition and not popping up has helped my control WHEN to begin to carve the next turn. I can kind of place a turn initiation where I want it now.
Things to still work on from what I've seen in the video:
Steering with the inside foot because I don't have enough edge angle on it to match the outside foot. There are TWO trains of thought on this: Am I simply not paying enough attention focusing on the inside leg in the turn? Perhaps stance a little too wide? I'm guessing its an attention thing....and that I'm just letting it ride flatter as I pressure the outer ski. It feels like its on edge until I saw the video. Regardless, he doesn't think it will be a huge hinderance to progress and will be easy to clean up in the future lessons.
Before anybody says I'm still steering and pivoting, watch the outside leg and it is clearly carving and the response I'm getting from the ski feels that way also.
Might be the last update or two of the season until this November.
@JDT,
Nice start.
Your turn entries are a little wobbly as the skis try to establish their groove. This is easily fixable.
Does it feel to you like you are gently "stomping" on the new outside ski to "pressure" it? It looks like this is what you are doing. Are you focusing exclusively on getting early pressure on the new outside ski to start the turn? This "pressuring" effort is unnecessary, and leads to a loss of turn smoothness. There's some general wobble and jerkiness you'll be happy to see gone when you figure out how to eliminate it.
Try to focus on initiating the turn by tipping the new inside ski from the foot up while shortening that new inside leg. Do nothing with the new outside ski or leg while tipping and flexing the new inside. Just wait for the outside to do its thing. See what happens. It will perform for you if your focus is strong on inside ski management. You don't need to add or put pressure on that outside ski. It will develop on its own.
This inside focus (tip and flex) should get the new inside ski edged instead of allowing it to lag behind the edging of the outside ski.
Also, slide that new inside foot back as you initiate the turn. It's getting out ahead of you every time. You don't need tips side-by-side, but you do need that inside ski to stay back as far as you can hold it. This slide-back of that new inside foot gets that inside tip to bite from the get-go.
Nice start.
Your turn entries are a little wobbly as the skis try to establish their groove. This is easily fixable.
Does it feel to you like you are gently "stomping" on the new outside ski to "pressure" it? It looks like this is what you are doing. Are you focusing exclusively on getting early pressure on the new outside ski to start the turn? This "pressuring" effort is unnecessary, and leads to a loss of turn smoothness. There's some general wobble and jerkiness you'll be happy to see gone when you figure out how to eliminate it.
Try to focus on initiating the turn by tipping the new inside ski from the foot up while shortening that new inside leg. Do nothing with the new outside ski or leg while tipping and flexing the new inside. Just wait for the outside to do its thing. See what happens. It will perform for you if your focus is strong on inside ski management. You don't need to add or put pressure on that outside ski. It will develop on its own.
This inside focus (tip and flex) should get the new inside ski edged instead of allowing it to lag behind the edging of the outside ski.
Also, slide that new inside foot back as you initiate the turn. It's getting out ahead of you every time. You don't need tips side-by-side, but you do need that inside ski to stay back as far as you can hold it. This slide-back of that new inside foot gets that inside tip to bite from the get-go.
Liquid,
Not necessarily. I'm more in the mentality of moving the skis out away from my upper body COM while tilting, and attempting to keep upper body calm. Keeping hips perpendicular to top sheets (no twisting)...and I think I could use a little more shoulder angulation to match the hips maybe?
Ok I'll focus on that for inside leg? I did notice it shuffles out too. Would you say its more because of this shuffle, or my stance width, why my inside edge angle seems to not develop the same way?
I guess another question I have is:
How is the inside ski supposed to make the same shape as the outside ski if there is less weight on it and therefore less bend in the ski. The only other option possible would be to add steering to the inside ski to help it through the turn. A fear I have is that the inside will want to go straight on edge while the outside comes around, and tips will cross mid arc.
How is the inside ski supposed to make the same shape as the outside ski if there is less weight on it and therefore less bend in the ski. The only other option possible would be to add steering to the inside ski to help it through the turn. A fear I have is that the inside will want to go straight on edge while the outside comes around, and tips will cross mid arc.
Here's a quick experiment that can be done at home....
Take one ski, clip in a boot. Place boot and ski on a wooden bench. Tip it over so the edge angle is about 30 to 40 degrees off vertical. Use your hands to press on the boot so the ski bends. It will take very little pressure - compared to standing on a ski with your whole body weight - to bend the ski until the area under the boot contacts the surface of the bench. At that point the ski won't bend any more regardless of how hard you press.
What this points out: it doesn't require much pressure to bend a tipped ski and once the middle touches the snow it's not going to bend any more ** unless it is tipped over further. If the inside ski goes straight it's more likely that it hasn't been tipped enough wrt the outside ski.
The aim in carving is to balance on the inside edge of the outside ski with almost all the weight (90%?) on that ski. That still leaves plenty to bend the inside ski roughly the same amount.
** Does depend a little on firmness of the snow. But when carving the snow is generally reasonably firm and deformation of the snow is a second order effect.
The muscles that tip your foot to the little toe edge are much weaker (generalization) and it's harder to tip to the little toe. That is the main reason for the inside foot tipping focus. If you do exactly as you are told and tip it without doing anything to the outside ski/foot, you will trip, but most people don't do exactly as they are told; when they tip the inside foot/ski they automatically tip the outside foot/ski. The weight required to bend the inside ski into a turn is not that high; if you tip it it will turn and you can easily tip it as much if not more than the outside ski if you try hard enough.
The ski moves ahead as you carve a turn. Hence, pullback and forward weight distribution causes the ski to bend even more as it moves forward (angle of attack going forward with bent tip) than it would with even weight distribution and no pull back. But now we are talking points for style. For now just concentrate on only tipping. Forget about moving the skis out to the side; just tip quickly from the old edge to the new edge and engage the new edge cleanly with weight pushing it down into the snow.
The ski moves ahead as you carve a turn. Hence, pullback and forward weight distribution causes the ski to bend even more as it moves forward (angle of attack going forward with bent tip) than it would with even weight distribution and no pull back. But now we are talking points for style. For now just concentrate on only tipping. Forget about moving the skis out to the side; just tip quickly from the old edge to the new edge and engage the new edge cleanly with weight pushing it down into the snow.
@JDT, nice start. What I'd like to see you accomplish is to use a much narrower stance. Your stance in the most recent video is wider than your hips and the result is that your skis are nowhere near similar edge angles -- the inside ski is being pressured more than ideal and is attempting to run into the outside ski because it has less edge angle than the outside ski.
It's good that you have some feelings of the outside ski engaging and starting to push back against you. Those feelings are what you need to seek.
I'd suggest that you start to do some disciplined work on getting committed to the outside ski. First activity might be to do 3 runs of nothing but stork turns. A stork turn has you lifting the tail of the inside ski while pulling it back to attempt to bend the front of that ski. You will need to rely on the outside ski to turn you through the turn. Initially, you might try to lift the inside ski at the fall line; as you gain proficiency, try to raise the ski earlier and earlier in the turn. For extra credit, lift the tail of the new outside ski before you change edges.
The pullback of the lifted inside ski helps to develop and maintain your athletic stance, a key component of skiing.
Give it a try, send video, and let us know what you find from doing the drill. Does it help you to find balance on the outside ski? Do you find that the inside ski is no longer a prop? And do you find that your arc is more carved from initiation to finish?
Mike
It's good that you have some feelings of the outside ski engaging and starting to push back against you. Those feelings are what you need to seek.
I'd suggest that you start to do some disciplined work on getting committed to the outside ski. First activity might be to do 3 runs of nothing but stork turns. A stork turn has you lifting the tail of the inside ski while pulling it back to attempt to bend the front of that ski. You will need to rely on the outside ski to turn you through the turn. Initially, you might try to lift the inside ski at the fall line; as you gain proficiency, try to raise the ski earlier and earlier in the turn. For extra credit, lift the tail of the new outside ski before you change edges.
The pullback of the lifted inside ski helps to develop and maintain your athletic stance, a key component of skiing.
Give it a try, send video, and let us know what you find from doing the drill. Does it help you to find balance on the outside ski? Do you find that the inside ski is no longer a prop? And do you find that your arc is more carved from initiation to finish?
Mike
It's your lack of strong focus on the inside ski.
You are getting excellent advice above. Pay attention to what geepers, Francois, and Mike say.
Plus, focus exclusively for a bit on tipping and flexing and holding back the inside foot/leg/ski. Serious intense focus on the inside is called for in order to bring that ski online. Not half-hearted focus while you pay more attention to the outside. Multitasking won't get the inside ski under control and functioning as it should. You have to give it priority at first. Otherwise it's only going to partly play its role in the turn.
Get the inside ski eager to do your bidding by training your mind to pay single-minded attention to it. Later, when inside ski management becomes embedded in muscle memory, you can shift your focus elsewhere.
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I'll pay attention to these things! May not happen all this year since season is winding down now but for sure will update next time I get video. Its hard to focus on so many things at once it can be overwhelming. Today, my instructor wanted me to focus on collar bone angulation to match the pelvic angulation...so we did some drills on that.
After, I read a couple responses and did what Francois said and I definitely noticed a positive improvement...although no video. I only focused on tipping that inside leg way over and the outside just sort of followed in after everything I've been doing. The outside leg felt more free to build edge angles.
Here's the tricky part. As far as stance width is concerned, its really difficult to judge if its actually that coveted "vertical" (chambered) separation from higher angles, or just unwanted horizontal (wider stance). Since I don't know what it is supposed to all feel like yet, it is hard to tell how it looks. I will let the instructor know that before we go further I'd really like to clean up my stance width and inside leg activity...as this is the indication I'm getting from here in order to not reach a plateau.
After, I read a couple responses and did what Francois said and I definitely noticed a positive improvement...although no video. I only focused on tipping that inside leg way over and the outside just sort of followed in after everything I've been doing. The outside leg felt more free to build edge angles.
Here's the tricky part. As far as stance width is concerned, its really difficult to judge if its actually that coveted "vertical" (chambered) separation from higher angles, or just unwanted horizontal (wider stance). Since I don't know what it is supposed to all feel like yet, it is hard to tell how it looks. I will let the instructor know that before we go further I'd really like to clean up my stance width and inside leg activity...as this is the indication I'm getting from here in order to not reach a plateau.
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- Feb 3, 2016
- Posts
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I know I'm late to this thread, but this Ski Mag series from Michael Rogan on how to carve might be helpful.
www.skimag.com
Learn How to Carve On Skis With These Drills
If you’re not tipping your skis on edge before your skis start turning in the other direction, you’re skidding—not carving.
www.skimag.com
Hey Mike
I do have weight almost everything on my outside ski. I’ve actually been doing many of these MS hip hike drills on flatter terrain.
I am also able to lift the inside leg and am actively pulling up my leg as the arc progresses. While shortening the leg does allow a little more edge on that outside ski, it gets to a point where I can’t get much past say 25-30 degrees or so on that outside ski. Are there any drills you may have in mind to help keep shins parallel? My next step will be to get a 9” or 12” loop band to strap around my legs…and really focus on tilting that inside ski in first.
The feeling I feel when I turn is that:
Weight is off the inside ski
Tip the outside ski (and inside a little bit)
The first thing I see is my stance start to widen even though pressure is still over my outside.
Of course looking at the video, all of the associated symptoms of my lack of inside leg discipline seem to be culminating: A frame, slight hip dumping on steeper terrain, etc. I feel like I go more into this stance instead of a true parallel shin carve
Attachments
If what you say about already being weighted on the outside ski is correct, this is very relevant.
Do the suggested actions both statically and when skiing a green.
BTW to check that weight is on the outside ski try thumpers (repeatedly lifting the inside ski and placing it back on the snow several times in a turn) or, preferably, doing most of the turn (from just after transition to after the fall line) on one ski. Sometimes it's good to confirm what we think is happening.
Well....its been a pretty good year I'd say. I think I'm making ok progress, however much more will blossom next year I hope. I've been very disciplined in my techniques working with various people and coaches. However, most has come from just pure and simple "Seat time", along with paying attention to what others have guided me on. As the year wraps up, here are a couple more videos from my most recent outing.
(Conditions: slush that has been frozen over, with a little bit loose on the top....BUMPY ice spots and dirt patches).
The key for me has been to focus on one thing at a time, and practice drills over, and over again. In addition, my own physical conditioning has also come in handy as edge angles have been increasing, which I have been very fortunate for!
Hurtles I have recently incorporated into my skiing:
Tilting of the pelvic bone beginning in the fall line. Referencing the MS "Hip Hike" video for her GS training. Starting every turn with the ankles and knees, then later the hiking of the hip.
Inside leg discipline... a real effort keeping shins parallel at first! The more I moved the inside leg out of the way, the more I was able to bring the outside leg over on edge.
Things I'd like to work on:
Pole planting
Narrower stance
Keeping stance lower on the transition
Further "tipping"
Yes,
I went down the "black" hill before perfecting all techniques. I would just like to say its the end of the year here, and hey...it was a good time to give it a go! No ego involved.
Thanks again so much to those that have contributed to this thread so far, and in the future! Cheers!
(Conditions: slush that has been frozen over, with a little bit loose on the top....BUMPY ice spots and dirt patches).
The key for me has been to focus on one thing at a time, and practice drills over, and over again. In addition, my own physical conditioning has also come in handy as edge angles have been increasing, which I have been very fortunate for!
Hurtles I have recently incorporated into my skiing:
Tilting of the pelvic bone beginning in the fall line. Referencing the MS "Hip Hike" video for her GS training. Starting every turn with the ankles and knees, then later the hiking of the hip.
Inside leg discipline... a real effort keeping shins parallel at first! The more I moved the inside leg out of the way, the more I was able to bring the outside leg over on edge.
Things I'd like to work on:
Pole planting
Narrower stance
Keeping stance lower on the transition
Further "tipping"
Yes,
I went down the "black" hill before perfecting all techniques. I would just like to say its the end of the year here, and hey...it was a good time to give it a go! No ego involved.
Thanks again so much to those that have contributed to this thread so far, and in the future! Cheers!