Most Expensive Window Rates and Value

[Jacob]

The reason people suggest having a guide off piste in Europe is because there are so many dangers that you can't see from above. So, if you tell people that it's ok to free ball it, then there will be people who get themselves into trouble just assuming that anything "inbounds" is safe or will have potential hazards marked. They'll see some bit of untouched snow that looks nice, and they'll jump right in without having scoped out the line to make sure that there is a safe exit.

Yes, you can ski off piste in Europe without a guide, but you have to be careful. You have to scope out your line from below or the side to check for hazards. Plus, you need to be aware of avalanche dangers, especially in areas that wouldn't threaten any pistes or buildings if there is a slide.

I know @Cheizz posted about a man recently killed in Austria in a slide that happened right under a lift. In Tignes last season (I think), there was a massive slide on a face that you can traverse to in just a few seconds from one of the pistes, which killed a few people. I know I've skied a few places that have terrain that looks fine from above, but it leads to serious hazards that you might not see until it's too late.

 

[Rod9301]

Ok

The reason people suggest having a guide off piste in Europe is because there are so many dangers that you can't see from above. So, if you tell people that it's ok to free ball it, then there will be people who get themselves into trouble just assuming that anything "inbounds" is safe or will have potential hazards marked. They'll see some bit of untouched snow that looks nice, and they'll jump right in without having scoped out the line to make sure that there is a safe exit.

Yes, you can ski off piste in Europe without a guide, but you have to be careful. You have to scope out your line from below or the side to check for hazards. Plus, you need to be aware of avalanche dangers, especially in areas that wouldn't threaten any pistes or buildings if there is a slide.

I know @Cheizz posted about a man recently killed in Austria in a slide that happened right under a lift. In Tignes last season (I think), there was a massive slide on a face that you can traverse to in just a few seconds from one of the pistes, which killed a few people. I know I've skied a few places that have terrain that looks fine from above, but it leads to serious hazards that you might not see until it's too late.

Ok, so?

I know of people who get caught inbounds in an avalanche at squaw.

Accidents happen

 

[Jacob]

Ok

Ok, so?

I know of people who get caught inbounds in an avalanche at squaw.

Accidents happen

When an inbounds slide with victims happens in a North American resort, it's an unexpected accident. Questions are raised about avi control, why the ropes were dropped for the terrain, etc, because the resorts actively seek to prevent inbounds slides. So, that's uncommon unless people are regularly ducking ropes.

Off-piste terrain in Europe is treated with the same mentality as out-of-bounds terrain in North America, even if it's in the very center of the ski area. If it doesn't threaten anything below it, then it's not controlled. So when a slide happens, it's not an accident; it's a common natural occurrence. If there are victims, then questions aren't raised about the resort's handling of the avalanche danger; they're raised about the victims' decision to ski the terrain.

If someone comes to Europe with the mentality that being within the resort boundaries means that they're pretty much safe from avalanches and unmarked hazards even in ungroomed terrain, then they can easily get themselves into trouble.

 

[Rod9301]

When an inbounds slide with victims happens in a North American resort, it's an unexpected accident. Questions are raised about avi control, why the ropes were dropped for the terrain, etc, because the resorts actively seek to prevent inbounds slides. So, that's uncommon unless people are regularly ducking ropes.

Off-piste terrain in Europe is treated with the same mentality as out-of-bounds terrain in North America, even if it's in the very center of the ski area. If it doesn't threaten anything below it, then it's not controlled. So when a slide happens, it's not an accident; it's a common natural occurrence. If there are victims, then questions aren't raised about the resort's handling of the avalanche danger; they're raised about the victims' decision to ski the terrain.

If someone comes to Europe with the mentality that being within the resort boundaries means that they're pretty much safe from avalanches and unmarked hazards even in ungroomed terrain, then they can easily get themselves into trouble.

Agree, people should take responsibility for their actions.

But I skied in Europe many times, are I see lots of people off piste, and most of the time they are ok.

There are signs everywhere shipping the avie danger on that particular day.

If you are stupid enough to disregard them, and hopefully you haven't had kids already, then Darwin's law should apply.

But to say that you need a guide to venture a few hundred feet off piste...

 

[Jacob]

But to say that you need a guide to venture a few hundred feet off piste...

...is just people covering their own asses.

Posts on a predominantly North American ski forum could be read by numbers of people who might not realize that European resorts don't have the same avi control, patrolling, and marked hazards within the resort boundaries as North American resorts. To say it's perfectly safe to ski off piste without a guide runs the risk of someone coming back after a horrific incident blaming you for misleading them, or worse, finding out that someone who read your post had a horrific incident and didn't make it back.

So, you get some people going through the trouble of explaining all the risks, and you get some people who take the easy route and suggest hiring a guide.

 

[skidrew]

I'm not getting how most expensive can ever be a great value.

Really, to get value worth $156, I'm thinking you'd have to go to one of the huge ski multi-village areas of Europe. And none of them cost that much. Therefore, $156 is not a good value. Nor is anything over, get this, $81.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/02/10/the-10-most-expensive-lift-tickets-in-europe/

The tickets here are under that price, but please don't come. I had to park 1.5 blocks further away than usual yesterday (Wednesday) because the schools were out.

Recognizing value is always in the eye of the beholder, a $150 lift ticket that combines with long lines is a much worse value than one at a place with relatively no lines, allowing for more runs.

 

[TahoeCharlie]

Off piste needs definition.

When I ascended to the summit of Cervinia and started down glaciers, passing fallen ice blocks and avoiding crevases, I was glad to have a guide. I call that off piste and out of bounds. When we skied between the groomed trails at Cervinia I was quite comfortable without a guide. I call that off piste but in bounds. There were plenty of places, though, that you could ski off piste, in bounds and find yourself dead ended at a reservoir or skiing down a slope of rock covered in ice without realizing you had gone effectively out of bounds within the bounds of the ski area.

Saying you need or don't need a guide for off piste is far to vague a statement to support or deny. You need a guide when you are in terrain that exposes you to hazards that you may not be able to see for their being covered by snow (crevasses) or lead you to dead ends or unforeseen obstacles. You won't know until you go whether you need one or not. I enjoyed the confidence of skiing with a guide on lots of terrain around Cervinia. I also enjoyed skiing between pistes that we could visually inspect prior to skiing. Alternatively we very much enjoyed the guidance of locals. We even had a good time when we skied without a guide altogether.

A guide can increase your pleasure level by removing uncertainty, knowing where the goods are and generally relieving you of having to do extensive research or snow safety evaluations when you'd rather be enjoying your vacation, après and night life and (oh ya) skiing.

@Doug Briggs. Totally agree with what you say above. My statement:

"I don't know why certain posters keep saying you need a guide to ski "off-piste" in Europe - it is not true. If you ski what we in the U.S. call "back-country", outside the "normal" ski area, yes, you need a guide. But if you simply ski "off-piste" next to the piste, or anywhere from the top to the bottom of the lift, you do not need a guide. Also any area that is lift served is Avalanche controlled, not just the piste."

contains the disclaimer, which people appear to be not reading, in red which covers the "out-of-bounds" you mention.

My beef is with various posters in this and other threads have said or implied that you absolutely need a guide (and you insurance is invalid) if you ski one step off piste; this is what's not true. If you take a lift up a bowl and ski back down that bowl to the lift base, you do not have to stay on the piste, your insurance is valid and you do not need a guide and the bowl is avy controlled - period. I'm talking about a filled-in, snow covered bowl like Siberia where you can traverse right or left a 1/4 mile and ski to the bottom. If you ski off the back side of said bowl, and there is no piste, into a different bowl/valley then you had better have a guide or a local that knows where they are going and maybe avy equipment. This would be considered gated "back-country" skiing in the U.S. and is not avy controlled and could be extremely dangerous.

Ski areas are enormous in Europe and an all-day guide can greatly enhance you resort experience by showing you great off-the-beaten-path slopes that you would never find yourself. But a guide is not need for everyday skiing on or close to pistes.

 

[TahoeCharlie]

One other thing, "liability", as a concept, is totally different in Europe then it is in the U. S.; the land of unlimited lawsuits. You are generally considered to be responsible for your own actions. If you ignore posted warnings and ski off a cliff, or into un-tracked back country, or do some other stupid thing, it's your own fault and you're responsible.

 

[Bolder]

Value ==> Largely dependent on snow conditions. I would happily walk up and pay $100 for a full day of bluebird weather after a fresh snow. That's what, $14 an hour to have a blast? You are more likely to have those conditions at resorts that charge that amount, I would argue. Of course if you drop the window rate at Vail and you're fogged in or conditions are patchy, then you'll not feel as if you got great value. But all in all I think it evens out.

The two best value places in US I've been to are Alta (when it was still cheap) and MRG. With Brighton, Telluride and ...Flagstaff, years ago... not far behind. Worst value: Killington. By "value" I mean: was I satisfied with what I received, taking into account weather etc.? Even though I've skied Killington in good conditions I just didn't think it was worth the premium over other NE resorts.

Sure, we pay a lot less in Europe but you miss some of the US amenities, i.e. warm base lodges, lots of free parking.

As for avalanche control, we spent a week in Valloire, France over Christmas and we stayed in an apartment in the house of the head pisteur (director of grooming and avalanche control). We had a big dump and heard avalanche cannons/charges going off every morning. He said they avalanche control the entire in-bounds area (150 km of runs) plus some of the popular off-piste areas. (outside of the ski station boundaries). I doubt that's typical, to be honest.

I've skiied lots of in-bounds sidecountry in Europe without a guide (but with a buddy). But only areas where I either saw tracks or knew 100 percent I wouldn't be going into a crevasse or dead-end couloir.

 

[fatbob]

@Doug Briggs. Totally agree with what you say above. My statement:

"I don't know why certain posters keep saying you need a guide to ski "off-piste" in Europe - it is not true. If you ski what we in the U.S. call "back-country", outside the "normal" ski area, yes, you need a guide. But if you simply ski "off-piste" next to the piste, or anywhere from the top to the bottom of the lift, you do not need a guide. Also any area that is lift served is Avalanche controlled, not just the piste."

contains the disclaimer, which people appear to be not reading, in red which covers the "out-of-bounds" you mention.

My beef is with various posters in this and other threads have said or implied that you absolutely need a guide (and you insurance is invalid) if you ski one step off piste; this is what's not true. If you take a lift up a bowl and ski back down that bowl to the lift base, you do not have to stay on the piste, your insurance is valid and you do not need a guide and the bowl is avy controlled - period. I'm talking about a filled-in, snow covered bowl like Siberia where you can traverse right or left a 1/4 mile and ski to the bottom. If you ski off the back side of said bowl, and there is no piste, into a different bowl/valley then you had better have a guide or a local that knows where they are going and maybe avy equipment. This would be considered gated "back-country" skiing in the U.S. and is not avy controlled and could be extremely dangerous.

Ski areas are enormous in Europe and an all-day guide can greatly enhance you resort experience by showing you great off-the-beaten-path slopes that you would never find yourself. But a guide is not need for everyday skiing on or close to pistes.

I'm sorry but this is an oversimplification and therefore might be dangerous in and of itself. Jacob is stating the correct position. There are areas in Europe where skiing " just off the side" of the piste can be as dangerous as full backcountry - Tignes as mentioned has a particular slope that has killed many, Flaine has sinkholes, glaciated terrain has crevasses ( I believe a USST junior was killed early season one year in such). And some (most defacto UK recreational for instance) insurance policies are invalidated for skiing offpiste without a guide.

And you are plain wrong when you state lift served = avalanche controlled. Yes a slope which would threaten pistes would be controlled but there are many fall lines and paths which would not do so.

Only in a resort with a designated freeride zone would a bowl like Siberia have the same status.

Of course there is much off piste that is perfectly safe or no different to US inbounds in risk but you need to know and judge. And following tracks isn't always reliable - somewhere like Chamonix or La Grave you might be following the gnarly squad who are rappelling or speedwinging to an exit etc.

 

[Jacob]

BTW, even some terrain that threatens pistes below isn't controlled. Instead, they just close the pistes when there's a danger.

I swear Piste L in Val d'Isere is never officially open due to the threat from the terrain on the skier's left. If you like skiing the off-piste terrain coming down from the right, then you sometimes have to make your way around avi debris when you get down to Piste L and start heading back to the lift.

 

[fatbob]

& as if we need a reminder conditions in Europe are claiming lives at the moment

http://pistehors.com/series-of-avalanches-across-alps-and-pyrenees-25259568.htm

Plus how do you feel if your small child skiing a green run is only rescued because her foot is visible?

 

[Jacob]

Getting back to the original topic, my 6-day lift pass for Arosa-Lenzerheide cost me 300 CHF, which is probably about $51 per day.

Given the size of the area and the small crowds outside of the school holidays, I think it's one of the best bargains in the Alps.

 

[focker]

Value ==> Largely dependent on snow conditions. I would happily walk up and pay $100 for a full day of bluebird weather after a fresh snow. That's what, $14 an hour to have a blast? You are more likely to have those conditions at resorts that charge that amount, I would argue. Of course if you drop the window rate at Vail and you're fogged in or conditions are patchy, then you'll not feel as if you got great value. But all in all I think it evens out.

The two best value places in US I've been to are Alta (when it was still cheap) and MRG. With Brighton, Telluride and ...Flagstaff, years ago... not far behind. Worst value: Killington. By "value" I mean: was I satisfied with what I received, taking into account weather etc.? Even though I've skied Killington in good conditions I just didn't think it was worth the premium over other NE resorts.

Sure, we pay a lot less in Europe but you miss some of the US amenities, i.e. warm base lodges, lots of free parking.

As for avalanche control, we spent a week in Valloire, France over Christmas and we stayed in an apartment in the house of the head pisteur (director of grooming and avalanche control). We had a big dump and heard avalanche cannons/charges going off every morning. He said they avalanche control the entire in-bounds area (150 km of runs) plus some of the popular off-piste areas. (outside of the ski station boundaries). I doubt that's typical, to be honest.

I've skiied lots of in-bounds sidecountry in Europe without a guide (but with a buddy). But only areas where I either saw tracks or knew 100 percent I wouldn't be going into a crevasse or dead-end couloir.

I don't get how more expensive resorts have better weather. You'll have to explain that one... So Keystone has better weather than Loveland? Big Sky has better weather than Bridger?

Laughable.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Think he means there's not much use paying up for premium terrain or facilites if the conditions or weather aren't favorable (such as this weekend in the northeast).

 

[TahoeCharlie]

I'm sorry but this is an oversimplification and therefore might be dangerous in and of itself. Jacob is stating the correct position. There are areas in Europe where skiing " just off the side" of the piste can be as dangerous as full backcountry - Tignes as mentioned has a particular slope that has killed many, Flaine has sinkholes, glaciated terrain has crevasses ( I believe a USST junior was killed early season one year in such). And some (most defacto UK recreational for instance) insurance policies are invalidated for skiing offpiste without a guide.

And you are plain wrong when you state lift served = avalanche controlled. Yes a slope which would threaten pistes would be controlled but there are many fall lines and paths which would not do so.

Only in a resort with a designated freeride zone would a bowl like Siberia have the same status.

Of course there is much off piste that is perfectly safe or no different to US inbounds in risk but you need to know and judge. And following tracks isn't always reliable - somewhere like Chamonix or La Grave you might be following the gnarly squad who are rappelling or speedwinging to an exit etc.

You and several others are missing the point I was trying to make. Several posters earlier stated categorically that you need to hire a guide to ski off piste anywhere in Europe and that your insurance is not valid if you ski even one foot off piste. That is simply not correct. In every area I have skied at in Europe, well over a dozen over many years, I have not been prohibited from skiing off piste without a guide and my insurance is always valid, I check (guess it's not a UK policy). Of course, one needs to use common sense and discretion as to where one goes, that's a given. I would never ski an unfamiliar slope I can't see, top to bottom, or scope out on the chair going up to make sure there are no dangerous conditions. And anyone following someone's tracks or skiing off the back side of a lift without knowing where they are going deserves a Darwin Award, whether it is in Europe or the U. S. .

Part of the original discussion was, I think, that one should factor in the cost of hiring a daily guide ($150/day?) into your cost of skiing in Europe if you want to have any "fun" skiing off piste. This would add a considerable expense to a European trip. I was merely trying to point out that there are vast areas of blue/red runs that can be safely skied off piste without a guide, as you state above. And there are even larger ares off piste where you absolutely need a guide or you're a idiot for trying to ski them without one, ie Valle Blanc.

 

[karlo]

http://www.snowjapan.com/japan-ski-resorts/hakuba-cortina

Incredible powder. Terrific glade skiing and side country. Adult about $36. Senior about $32, and that's over 50!

What did I say? Nevermind, it was nothing.

 

[fatbob]

You and several others are missing the point I was trying to make. Several posters earlier stated categorically that you need to hire a guide to ski off piste anywhere in Europe and that your insurance is not valid if you ski even one foot off piste. That is simply not correct. .

Nope totally got that . The problem was that you replaced one sweeping generalisation with a number of other fallacious generalisations of your own the most dangerous of which is your assertion that a bowl with a lift and pistes in it is controlled to the same level that such a bowl would be inbounds in the US.

 

[Jacob]

This happened sometime today in Arosa, probably late morning since that face points southeast. I didn't see any tracks leading into it, so I'm hoping it was a natural slide.

As you can see, it's part of a big bowl served by that lift. The skier's right is a groomed black, and the rest is off piste with no avi control because the slides wouldn't really threaten the piste or lift towers.

The avalanche danger for the area was listed as 3 today, which is pretty typical for a normal day in the Alps.

That's the type of terrain that's so easy to get to, and most of that bowl is safe. But if you keep traversing in search of fresh tracks, then you quickly go from safe to dangerous in a very short space.

 

[Mallet21]

As someone who golfs quite a bit and is used to paying $60-$90 per round, $150 for an all day experience where there are no lines and all of the lifts are high-speed (Beaver Creek) doesn't seem so bad.

Further.....the window rate at my local 300 vert hill is $55 on the weekends. That essentially buys me the opportunity to spend my day sitting on a chairlift.