Missing Sub

[JCF]

And as I said, the warning is about 1,500 meters. It's a huge amount of pressure from the point where we'd say, "Oh, the hull's not happy" to when it implodes. And so you got a lotta time to drop your weights, to go back to the surface, and then say, "Okay, let's find out what's wrong."
————————————-

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush talks Titan sub's design, carbon fiber hull, safety and more in 2022 interviews

"Sunday Morning" correspondent David Pogue talked in Summer 2022 with the man behind the creation of the submersible that catastrophically imploded, killing five, during a June 2023 dive to the wreck of the Titanic.

www.cbsnews.com

Well, it appears part of his system worked...the sensors must have warned him because the weights were dropped. Big problem was it was pretty much the only part he had to rely on, and it failed to sense the degree of breakdown of the subs structure in time, or the structure broke down too quickly, and there was no time to get back to the surface to "find out what was wrong"
Hell of a system.... This man was Icarus.
The tragedy/crime though was that he brought along other people

 

[crosscountry]

The tragedy/crime though was that he brought along other people

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking... those "other people" brave the risk just to watch the Titanic wreck through a port hole?

It's one thing to actually EXPLORE the deep sea. But just to gawk at a wreck for the novelty of it?

 

[oldschoolskier]

There is something that few have caught on, Rush talks about tensile strength, not compressive strength. This is very important as Carbon Fiber "composite" relies on the binding of the binding agent in compression to keep it solid, that lets go, well.........


Strange enough Rush never mentions that.

 

[crgildart]

If they had a power or maneuvering controls failure, dropped the weights, and ascended back to the surface without a working beacon that would have been another version of the tragedy where they suffocate if not found in time... as they were bolted in air tight from the outside..

 

[James]

It's one thing to actually EXPLORE the deep sea. But just to gawk at a wreck for the novelty of it?

They apparently had the issue of that early on of people thinking that it was a luxury trip. They’re surveying the wreck. He says it’s likely to be mostly gone in 10-15 years through bacteria continuing to eat it, turning steel to rust. I suppose you’ll be left with the propellers and a lot of brass and bronze fittings, plates, bottles etc.

If the dive is cancelled for mechanical reasons-100% back for another. If for weather, 50%. “Better than a ski vacation” is the saying. It’s in that interview.

Big problem was it was pretty much the only part he had to rely on, and it failed to sense the degree of breakdown of the subs structure in time, or the structure broke down too quickly, and there was no time to get back to the surface to "find out what was wrong"

I wonder if they had any specific protocols for noise mapping interpretation beyond, “that sounds bad”. I doubt it, since it’s probably a pretty new area with little research. I saw one video where an engineer (not with OceanGate) involved with composites said you could ultra sound map something the size of the Titan for around $20k. I would think ultrasound before and after decent, plus the acoustic info, might get you some understanding of whether this thing would hold up.

Karl Stanley told him he should do 50 test dives to full depth before having people in it.
I think Rush thought they had the cf failure enveloped with the acoustic monitoring.

More from that CBS/Pogue interview-
———————-
RUSH…It is amazing what happens when these things implode. This is several sticks of dynamite. This stuff is quite strong.

Like, over here, we blew this one up. So this is all a one-third scale [model of the Titan]. We were able to blow this up intentionally, to hear what it's like with our acoustic monitoring system. What we wanted to verify was, we can detect the carbon fiber failing way before it happens, so that you can stop your descent and go to the surface.

And that's what we found out here. So we now know what this shape sounds like when it's uncomfortable and right before death.
It's the loudest thing I've ever heard in my life.

When you go beyond 6,000 PSI in the test chamber that we were using at the University of Washington, they have to empty the building. Only essential personnel can be there.

POGUE: Because it's so loud?
RUSH: Because if it goes off, it's—not quite low-level nuclear, but it's a lot. It's (LAUGH) tens of thousands of pounds of TNT.

And so you're in there getting the test going and it's like, "Everyone out of the building! Everyone out of the building!" And then this thing goes, and it's starting to make a lot of noise.

So we have the acoustic monitoring, and it's goin' nuts. And we know it's gonna go. And then all of a sudden it goes, and the whole building shakes. I mean, it is incredible.

But, yeah, we've blown up a few things. And it's pretty dramatic.

POGUE: When you say blow it up, you mean—
RUSH: Imploded. We implode it…
—————-

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush talks Titan sub's design, carbon fiber hull, safety and more in 2022 interviews

"Sunday Morning" correspondent David Pogue talked in Summer 2022 with the man behind the creation of the submersible that catastrophically imploded, killing five, during a June 2023 dive to the wreck of the Titanic.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[crosscountry]

He says it’s likely to be mostly gone in 10-15 years through bacteria continuing to eat it, turning steel to rust. I suppose you’ll be left with the propellers and a lot of brass and bronze fittings, plates, bottles etc.

I didn't know that. I had thought naively if the wreck had been sitting down there for 100 year, it'll continue to sit there for another hundred...

 

[Lauren]

They apparently had the issue of that early on of people thinking that it was a luxury trip. They’re surveying the wreck. He says it’s likely to be mostly gone in 10-15 years through bacteria continuing to eat it, turning steel to rust. I suppose you’ll be left with the propellers and a lot of brass and bronze fittings, plates, bottles etc.

I think this is one thing that the media led the general public to believe, by regularly using the words "tourist" or "tourism" when reporting. Which...yes, there is a component of that. But in actuality, the scientific objectives and results is pretty interesting, IMO. Did they obtain these results in a safe and ethical manner...the former has an obvious answer, and the latter could be debatable (and not the point of my post here). I read one article that basically described why they chose the Titanic, and it came down to the fact that deep sea exploration is obscenely expensive. In order to perform a dive every year...they need funding. By offering up seats to see the Titanic, they were able to fund each expedition. People were willng to pay to see the Titanic, but they probably wouldn't have been willing to pay that amount to see some random other shipwreck. There was one article that mentioned that OceanGate had not returned a profit yet (there was no source mentioned...so could be questionable information).

I think one of the interesting things is the description of the Titanic acting as an artificial reef, allowing an entire ecosystem to grow and live. They've taken DNA samples from the area and able to analyze and understand the deep-sea ecosystems better. By diving every year, they have the ability to see the deterioration of the ship along with the increase of sponges, corals, and other life forms that are making the Titanic home.

OceanGate also conducted an expedition to a volcanic reef that was located on sonar 30-ish years ago. When they got there, they found that it was a prosperous ecosystem, and that the deep-sea may be home to more life than previously thought.

In order to perform these types of dives, new technology and innovations need to be part of the equation. I really hope the outcome of OceanGate's expedition doesn't stifle future exploration but creates necessary change in certification requirements and policy to make it safer.

 

[JCF]

I think this is one thing that the media led the general public to believe, by regularly using the words "tourist" or "tourism" when reporting. Which...yes, there is a component of that. But in actuality, the scientific objectives and results is pretty interesting, IMO.

It would seem to me, whatever the scientific objectives might have been, more attention should have been focused on the soundness of the vessel. Way more. Especially if inviting people who did not have a clear understanding of the risk was part of the project.
The sub and "breaking rules in its construction" was the real experiment here.
And frankly, it is a perfect disaster for our times. This current arrogant delusion that our own perceptions and judgements are infallible, no matter how little understanding of the subject we have, that we don't need to listen to people who spend lifetimes accumulating knowledge and experience, because someone said it was so somewhere on the internet it must be so if it agrees with how we feel about it, so we can toss all the rules out the window mentality has us all in a sub headed for the bottom.

 

[crosscountry]

I think this is one thing that the media led the general public to believe, by regularly using the words "tourist" or "tourism" when reporting. Which...yes, there is a component of that. But in actuality, the scientific objectives and results is pretty interesting,

I haven't paid much attention to that aspect. Does OceanGate has an exploratory arm in addition to their "tourism" component? Or, has the Titan been hired for deep sea exploratory work as well?

 

[tball]

Karl Stanley told him he should do 50 test dives to full depth before having people in it.

Fifty test dives on a prototype and then end of life the operational sub after 25 is what I'd want to hear before going down.

Any word on how many test dives they did?

 

[Lauren]

I haven't paid much attention to that aspect. Does OceanGate has an exploratory arm in addition to their "tourism" component? Or, has the Titan been hired for deep sea exploratory work as well?

From my understanding it's all one and the same. The most mentioned reason for their exploration is to document the deterioration of the Titanic (Titanic being chosen due to its notoriety) and the ecosystem that has found a home on it. I'm not sure if it had every been "hired" for a specific mission outside of those that OceanGate wanted to achieve.

 

[scott43]

I think it's a joy ride masquerading as science with tourism subsidizing the costs.

 

[ilovepugs]

With the implication that NASA, Boeing, and the like were involved with this endeavor yet each of them distanced themselves prior to the actual expedition, it makes me think more and more that ego from Rush was a key factor.

One thing that I know most about those who go on risky adventures is that you need to be confident but not egotistical.

I may be off but I don't think by far.

According to Behind the Bastards, after giving up on his dream to be an astronaut, Rush still wanted to be an explorer, so he took up cold water diving… then decided that he should try to do it in a submarine because it’s more comfy to be in a can sitting hot cocoa. Not sure if he had any inkling that space stations are kind of gross places…

 

[Lauren]

I think it's a joy ride masquerading as science with tourism subsidizing the costs.

100% agree that this was what Rush probably had in it for personal gain...he "wanted to be known as an innovator". But I do believe some good has gone to the scientific community due to the dives that were successful. Do the pros outweigh the cons? No. Of course not. 5 people have lost their lives due to his (and his company's) "innovation".

 

[JCF]

So Rush couldn't make it as an astronaut so he decided to try something some would argue is even MORE difficult....and to do it a great deal on his own (except to bring others down in his experiment).
IMHO what he was doing was the opposite of what science is. Scientists work from a firm foundation of data and proven theories (the shoulders of giants)
He was flying on a wing and a prayer - with passengers who put their trust in him...
Human Folly, the show that never gets old.

 

[James]

Read the interview posted. It’s almost all there. Fuel costs were about $1million last year. It’s hard to subsidize general deep sea diving with the public paying for going down. Titanic is a big draw. I doubt Bismarck has anything close to the draw.

The other “innovation” was launching from that sled instead of a crane. No special ship needed with a big crane, reduced chance of damage swinging over the side. Not sure you could do that with a steel or titanium hulled vessel of that size, 4-5 people.

 

[cantunamunch]

100% agree that this was what Rush probably had in it for personal gain...he "wanted to be known as an innovator". But I do believe some good has gone to the scientific community due to the dives that were successful. Do the pros outweigh the cons? No. Of course not. 5 people have lost their lives due to his (and his company's) "innovation".

I submit that innovation that doesn't stick isn't innovation.

We have pictures of inline skates being used on Central European cobblestones ... before WWI. Didn't stick until the 90s.

 

[Lauren]

I submit that innovation that doesn't stick isn't innovation.

Hence the quotation marks around "innovation".

 

[JCF]

Innovation is a good thing and what advances the ball.
That limited resources cause innovators to think of different methods to reach a goal - good thing.
Knowing that they are therefore going into uncharted territory, and they don't thoroughly test to the extreme the most critical elements, or at the very least, absorb the lessons and knowledge from others who have attempted similar endeavors - Folly
That they take innocent people along - seems like a crime to me.

It's like if Orville and Wilbur had taken a couple runs at Kitty Hawk, and then took a a few people up to 20,000 feet....of course not - people had more common sense ? No internet ?
Only in this age of the all knowing idiot is this possible.

 

[James]

It's like if Orville and Wilbur had taken a couple runs at Kitty Hawk, and then took a a few people up to 20,000 feet....of course not - people had more common sense ? No internet ?
Only in this age of the all knowing idiot is this possible.

Yeah, plenty of idiots back then strapping wings on and jumping off heights.
Going over Niagara Falls, rowing across oceans. On and on. In myth, Odysseus lost all his ships and men! Would’ve faced court-martial in modern days. Achilles was guilty of war crimes.

Not much different.