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[Tom351]

My goal is exciting, semi fast, well controlled skiing, carved turns and good technique. Age 45- I have never had an actual lesson and only ski about 8-10 days per year. I think I am too far backseat, as my quads do get sore (although I did ski 50k feet of vertical on this and the following day) What am I doing wrong? What (if anything) am I doing right? Thanks! First clip is a hard-pack blue groomer (Hangmans at Big Sky) , 2nd clip (with camera on ski) is faster/more icy blue groomer (Elk Park Ridge at Big Sky). Skiing on 90mm waist all mtn skis- Nordica NRGY 90 177cm, although I normally am on Enforcer88 in 186cm.

Thanks!

 

[tube77]

Pull your inside ski back. You are scissoring so the tips diverge and a-frame knee.
Be patient at turn initiation.

 

[Bad Bob]

For the amount of skiing you are state you have done; good job .

You do however live in the largest room in the world, 'The Room for Improvement'. Do you have any physical issues with your left leg or foot? You ski very left foot dominant. Would suggest doing drills that require you to be on the outside/downhill ski more.
Kind of hard to tell but would guess you are a bit in the backseat as well, it goes quite often with being to dependent on the uphill ski. Hockey stop, and slipping drills can be good for that; it is tough to control a slip when you are on the tail of your uphill ski.

Big Sky? Yes, I'm jealous. Enjoy.

 

[Tom351]

Thank you! No issues with my left foot, but I do play a lot of ice hockey and my stronger direction to cut or stop is using my left foot so that might be translating to skiing. Was only at Big Sky for two days, live in NC and usually ski there or in WV.

 

[Bad Bob]

Thank you! No issues with my left foot, but I do play a lot of ice hockey and my stronger direction to cut or stop is using my left foot so that might be translating to skiing. Was only at Big Sky for two days, live in NC and usually ski there in in WV.

Okay, we can be friends now.

Don't feel alone, most of us are more dominant on one foot or the other.

 

[Chris V.]

I'm loving the ski tip cam perspective. That's one I hadn't seen before. Really useful!

 

[geepers]

Thank you for posting some clean vid of skiing (in landscape too ) and stating your intent . Nice work on the run too.

Watching the skis... what I see are a quicker change in direction of the skis around the apex and then gentle curves/traverses to the next turn. It's almost like making a series of 1st turns down the mountain rather than flowing from one turn to the next. Guessing you are doing this to restore balance after the turn and for speed control. That traverse (or extended turn exit) also requires more effort to initiate these "1st turns" and there you make an extension movement off the old inside ski to push the upper body up and rotate it to start the new turn.

Be better to get the skis to turn more progressively through the entire arc rather than doing most of the turn in one section. Turns should be more like a series of semi-circles and at each point in the arc the skis should progressively rotate through through the whole arc. This progressive turn will make maintaining balance easier, allow control of speed via line (turn as much back into the hill as required) and most importantly will allow flow into the next turn by using the forces from the old turn to set up the new turn.

Also better if the turn initiation was from the lower body and involved much less upper body rotation. Partly this is due to being too aft at the start of the turn. Approaching transition it would be better to be moving your center of mass forward mostly in the direction of the skis but slightly downhill. Passing through the gates of faith as one of the CSIA L4s termed it.

Recommend practicing the following on some slightly milder terrain - where-ever you find it easy to manage speed. Forget the title. At 1:30 note the roundness of this guy's turns and how his body moves forward and slightly downhill into the transition between turns. When the skis are still completing the old turn this movement of "toppling" into the new turn and onto the new edges becomes effortless. No upper body twist disturbing balance required.




When this is mastered try some other vids from this same youtube channel. The two on carving will be useful as well.

 

[checksix68]

IMHO some really nice skiing overall. I like what you're doing with your upper body. It's more upright, you're not "hinged" at the hip joint. I especially like what you are doing with your head. Believe it or not, your creating an angle with your head. At times skiers lean their head in towards the inside of the turn which can mess with your equilibrium causing balance issues and it further leads to banking into the turn. So, Great job !!!
Sorry about the quality of the screen shots I grabbed. I'm not a tech wizard. Looking at the first photo, and I understand that these are just moments in time. Clearly, you have built some really nice angles using the ankle and knee joints. The ankles, knees, hips, shoulders and head all line up quite nicely as you can see. You've created a solid platform to balance against without pushing the skis out away from you, you're standing on the outside ski, and your hips are inside the turn as a result of building that balance platform using the ankle and knee joints. This happens as a result of continuing to flex those 2 joints after the apex of the turn. I didn't mention the hip joint because it is my opinion that you are using just the right amount of hip flexion to accomplish your intent, so don't add movement or try to fix what isn't broke. Continuing to discuss the second half of your turn... as you continue to flex the ankles and knees, you are still maintaining shin contact with the fronts of your boots. What you should feel is your weight more on the heels. This doesn't mean you are in the back seat. Since it is the bottom half of the turn, the weight needs to be back in order to control the back half of the skis and finish the turn. This deflects the skis across the slope, leaves you with some stored energy to start the next turn in a forward position. This is very much a timing thing. When you start to relax, lighten or release the pressure from your outside ski, this creates instability, which allows gravity to take over. Your COM will cross your skis and you will begin to topple down the mountain and into the next turn. If timed correctly, your skis will start to shoot out away from you, leaving you in a forward position where you will have control over the front half of your skis (shovels), your hips will already be inside the turn, and all you really have to do is wait for your new edges to "hook up." From there, as stated earlier, you should be focusing on flexing those joints to absorb energy and build that stable platform to balance against as the turn progresses. In case I'm not being clear enough, you can even PRACTICE getting as low, low, low as you can go to exaggerate the movement pattern using those ankles and knees. Clearly, you have demonstrated that you are capable and have the mobility to execute a really nice turn. Now for the elephant in the room... the second photo. I'm not going to harp too much about what you're doing. I just explain a couple things that are happening which will hopefully bring you back around to focusing on the ankles and knees. If you look at your outside ski and the arrow I've drawn, it appears you are "pushing" the ski out away from you. This has the result of "pushing" your hips inside the turn as denoted by the arrow at your hips. The inside ski is relatively inactive at this point and results in an A frame. As you can see, nothing really lines up and you have to add weird body movements in order to stay balanced against the outside ski. It also appears your COM lines up more on your inside ski. I think you can see the contrast between the 2 photos, so enough said on that score. Again, really nice skiing and speed management. Best of luck to you and thanks for sharing your video !!!

 

[Tom351]

Thanks so much for the input!

 

[Chris V.]

my quads do get sore

Chatter==>>lots of sudden changes in eccentric tension==>>sore quads. Are you sensing chatter?

 

[Tom351]

Chatter==>>lots of sudden changes in eccentric tension==>>sore quads. Are you sensing chatter?

Yes, that is a great point that I did not think of, some of the runs were very firm and I was getting lots of chatter.

 

[Posaune]

I'm not an instructor, just a skier, and I've only given advice once here on the forum, but I can't help myself since my scan of the very long responses here doesn't turn up the one thing that seemed obvious both from your description of how your quads are hurting and the video, especially the tip cam: You could put your hands out in front of you and leave them there, like you're driving a car. Your hands come down to your side a bunch which leads to you transferring your weight to the back of the ski. Of all of the tips I have gotten over the years it's "Keep your hands in front of you and face downhill all of the time" that has been the most beneficial.

If I missed this in someone's response, I apologize.

 

[Noodler]

I'm not an instructor, just a skier, and I've only given advice once here on the forum, but I can't help myself since my scan of the very long responses here doesn't turn up the one thing that seemed obvious both from your description of how your quads are hurting and the video, especially the tip cam: You could put your hands out in front of you and leave them there, like you're driving a car. Your hands come down to your side a bunch which leads to you transferring your weight to the back of the ski. Of all of the tips I have gotten over the years it's "Keep your hands in front of you and face downhill all of the time" that has been the most beneficial.

If I missed this in someone's response, I apologize.

Hand position is typically an output, not an input. Our hands end up where our brain believes they NEED to be to remain in balance. If you find yourself having to force your hands into a particular position, it is usually an indicator of a root cause balance issue somewhere else lower in the chain.

 

[Posaune]

Hand position is typically an output, not an input. Our hands end up where our brain believes they NEED to be to remain in balance. If you find yourself having to force your hands into a particular position, it is usually an indicator of a root cause balance issue somewhere else lower in the chain.

That was not the case for me. My hands and arms moving back led to my imbalance. This was the root cause. When I concentrated on them it made me more balanced which allowed for other improvements.
I read this ski instructor jargon and remember the KISS method: Keep It Simple, Stupid. I spent 31 years as an educator, and you know a good teacher when they can get a concept across with simple terms that the student can understand and relate to. I've been skiing since 1963 and I simply can't understand a lot of the stuff I read here, and I'm not a beginner. It makes me wonder...

 

[Noodler]

That was not the case for me. My hands and arms moving back led to my imbalance. This was the root cause. When I concentrated on them it made me more balanced which allowed for other improvements.
I read this ski instructor jargon and remember the KISS method: Keep It Simple, Stupid. I spent 31 years as an educator, and you know a good teacher when they can get a concept across with simple terms that the student can understand and relate to. I've been skiing since 1963 and I simply can't understand a lot of the stuff I read here, and I'm not a beginner. It makes me wonder...

Have you had your fore/aft stance alignment evaluated? Have you tested changing fore/aft stance alignment variables (forward lean and binding delta primarily) to see what effect they have on your skiing? Biomechanics cannot be thwarted. There is a chain that starts from the ground up for everyone. There's a difference between using a "workaround" versus resolving root causes.

 

[Posaune]

Have you had your fore/aft stance alignment evaluated? Have you tested changing fore/aft stance alignment variables (forward lean and binding delta primarily) to see what effect they have on your skiing? Biomechanics cannot be thwarted. There is a chain that starts from the ground up for everyone. There's a difference between using a "workaround" versus resolving root causes.

This thread is not about me.

 

[Bad Bob]

With @Psaune on this one. Current PSIA says hand position is a result but can be directed for better balance. Forward within the field of vision is a great aid for advancement. We tend to go where our hands and head leed us.
I do not have current PSIA creds i am a lowly rookie instructor again. I was fairly high in my divisional organization at one time ( please read in L3 Examiners Clinic InstructorSS director for a number of years and other stuff). Hands are a good tell and an understandable to talk about for many skiers.

 

[Mike King]

@Tom351 there is some nice skiing in there. Nice job!

The biggest issue I see in your video is how you are turning your skis. To turn your skis, you are rotating your upper body to start the skis turning, then you use a bit of leg steering to continue getting them to turn. You then try to have your body facing the valley with the result that your inside foot is too far in front of your outside foot. So there are several consequences of these body movements and their duration, intensity, rate and timing:

• In order to change edges, you have to move from the old outside ski (which is a bit in back of you; e.g. you are too far forward on it) to the new outside ski (which is too far in front of out; e.g. too far aft).
• From this position, you extend the new outside leg to start pushing your body across the skis and rotate your upper body into the turn, which causes the new outside ski to turn more rapidly than the new inside ski in the start of the turn (a slight wedge entry).
• The result of the upper body rotation is that the rotary force is delayed is that the skis rotate mostly in the shaping phase of the turn at a rapid rate -- a consequence of the rotary tension building moving from the farthest from the skis (the upper body) to the legs then to the feet -- upper body rotation is effective in causing the skis to rotate, but it is not very controllable and it comes all at once.
• Your body starts the turn too far inside the turn with the result that you fall on the inside foot (too much pressure on the inside foot).
• From this position, you wind up with the edge angle being highest in the finish of the turn and out of balance, so you take a very long traverse to sort everything out to get ready to start the next turn.

If you want to carve medium radius turns at a moderate to high speed, then you need to learn how to effectively use pressure and edge rather than rotation to turn the skis. The edge needs to be established early so that it can accept the pressure that will arise later in the turn with the result that the ski will bend. The bend in the ski is what you want to turn the ski, not rotational force coming from the upper body or the legs. So here's a few things you can try to work on adding these elements to your skiing:

1. Skating: The objective here is to learn how to tip the lower legs to create edge. Start in an athletic position with flex in your ankle, knee, and hip. Pick up one foot and roll the knee on the other leg down and inside to create an edge, then push off of that foot to glide on the little toe edge of the opposing ski. Roll that knee down and in to create the edge on that ski, then push off more forward than across the ski to land and glide on the opposing ski. Practice this on a flat or slight uphill without poles. Believe me, this is a key skill and one you probably cannot practice too much...
2. J Turns: On a moderate blue to steep green slope, start with your skis at a 45 degree angle to the fall line. Roll the lower leg into the hill (roll the knees down and into the hill) -- see the linkage to the skating drill? Your objective is to produce two pencil line tracks of the skis down, across and UP the hill. See how far up the hill you can actual get. You can start increasing the steepness of your entry (e.g. more in the fall line).
3. Outside Ski Turns: Start in a traverse across the hill. Pick up the downhill ski and traverse for a second or two on the little toe edge of the uphill ski. Then roll the knee down and into the hill to create an edge and carve the ski around the turn. It is fine to drag the tip of the inside ski to create a fulcrum. You will be more successful if your inside knee mimics the action of the outside knee in rolling down and into the turn.
4. Carved Turns: Take all of this into actual turns. The objective is to change the edges using the lower body rather than the upper body. So to start the turn, you will roll the knees down and into the turn. Allow the pressure to come to the skis -- don't push the skis to create an edge or seek pressure.

This should help you to achieve your objective.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^That.

 

[Tom351]

Thanks so much for the detailed response @Mike King !