Intro to Backcountry

[laine]

I just signed up for an Intro to Backcountry Skiing class through Alpine Skills International in Tahoe. I have absolutely no backcountry experience - though I have x-country skied before. (I have no idea if skinning is at all similar to classic x-country.)

This is the class: http://www.alpineskills.com/bcsm_intro.html

Advice welcome!

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

@laine, How exciting!!! When are you taking the class? You can PM me the info instead
This Saturday may be a bit sloppy...

A friend just took an ASI avy 2 course 2 weekends ago and seemed to really like the orgsnization.

I took my intro class with 35+ women 9 years at Crystal Mountain In WA through Evo and absolutely loved it. I remember most of us falling while skinning because we didn’t quite have the feel of where to be in our stance. Look up some intro YouTube videos on skinning so you can better visualize what you’ll be doing.

Love to celebrate and hear about your experience in person at the end of your intro class if the stars align.

 

[laine]

@Rainbow Jenny -PM'd you, but taking the class this coming Sat. So might be in the slop. My goal is to take the Avy 1 class and get certified - but clearly need the Intro class as a prerequisite. My husband isn't interested in earning his turns, so this will hopefully be a fun excursion a few times per season, but not an every weekend kind of thing.

 

[Slim]

@laine, some answers from an experienced XC skier, newbie AT skier:

Skinning on AT skis is similar to classic on ‘touring XC’ skis, except you can go up much steeper inclines: don’t lean forward, smoothly push off, while sliding forward on the other foot.

It is not at all like XC classic on performance skis: where each stride consists of actively collapsing the kickpocket(camber), before pushing the foot back, followed by a long glide.

 

[Slim]

If you can, get your rental gear the night before and practice with it in the living room.

Put the boots on and figure out how to switch from walk to ski mode, and how Wide you need to open the cuff buckles and power strap.
most people find it works best to leave the upper foot buckle done up, to keep you heel from lifting inside the boot while walking.

Search the internet on how to use your particular bindings stepping in and switching from ski to walk mode and back, and practice that, including flipping the risers with your poles. Wear gloves, many bindings bite!

Practice applying the skins. If they are hard to pull apart, use the ‘thigh method’:
put the skin across you legs, glue facing out, just above the knees. Now pull it apart by opening up your knees, while holding the skin tight across your lower thighs with your hands. Sounds complex, but is simple once you try it.

Practice assembling your shovel and probe (go outside or in a big space for the probe).
Figure out how to wear the beacon harness (over your baselayer, under any jackets), and how to switch it from off>send>search. Check that the beacon has at least 2/3 or 70% battery left.

 

[Slim]

If you have time before your outing, the Utah Avalanche Center has a great online (free!) avalanche theory course. That way, on your outing, you are not trying to understand and remember new concepts as well as apply them.

https://kbyg.org/learn/

 

[Slim]

Then, clothing. You might already have a real good handle on this, but, the Bay Area isn’t known for it‘s winter conditions, so here is the info just in case:

I see temperatures of 50F for Tahoe this Saturday. Think hiking or biking in 50F, what would you wear?

If you have unlined shell pants with venting zips, I would wear those, with some (compression) shorts underneath, to prevent chafing and so you can open the zips up wide without flashing underwear.
If your normal alpine pants are lined, do you have any rain pants, wind pants or Softshell pants?

For the upper body, in those temps, a nice thin baselayer or sun shirt with long sleeves will be key. Many people like a hood to protect their neck from sun.
Otherwise, a buff for the same purpose. A baseball cap to shield your eyes and face from sun.
A thin stocking hat, headband or buff in case your head gets cold.
If you can remove the padding and ear flaps from your helmet I would, your ears should be fine with hats and hoods in those temps, and removing them make the helmet easier to pack, and prevents those fabric pieces from getting wet if you fall in the snow with the helmet on your backpack.

(Big) sunglasses for the way up. Can you ski down in those? If not, goggles for the way down.
Very thin gloves for the climb: pipe gloves, liner gloves, bike gloves, garden gloves, etc, dig through your house and find something thin. A second pair will be nice, if you end up doing any rescue drills, or more than one climb, the first pair will be wet.
Some alpine skiing gloves for the descent.

If it’s 50F and sunny at the base, but you climb up 3000’, it might be only 36F, and if clouds roll in and the wind picks up a bit, you will need somehting more.
Given the high temps, I would suggest a windshell if you have one, maybe from running or biking? Either a jacket or sleeveless vest.

Then an unlined waterproof shell jacket. If you have one, use a summer rainjacket. At such high temps, it migh not come out of your pack all day.
And finally, a midweight down or synthetic jacket:

Put the puffy on in the morning over your baselayer, while you are standing around at the trailhead getting ready and listening. Only take it off when you are about to start skinning.

Keep the windshirt/vest within easy acces in case you need it on the way up.

Up top, put on the rain- or windshell on first, then, if you are still cool, throw the puffy over the top. Rip skins, switch boots and bindings to ski mode and only then stuff the puffy back in the pack, so you can ski down in just the wind- or rainshell.

 

[Slim]

At those temps, you don’t have to worry about water freezing, so you can use either a hydration bladder-hose system or bike bottle, whatever you prefer.
It’s really nice if you can acces it without taking of your pack, but I assume you are renting a backpack?
If you have a hose system, that would be easy, and will work with any pack. If you have bottles, maybe you have one of the carriers that attach to waist or chest strap?
If not, here are DIY options:

5 DIY Water Bottle Holders for Backpacks Straps - 99Boulders

Want quick access to your water bottle when on the trail? Here are 5 easy ways to attach a water bottle to your backpack strap.

www.99boulders.com

 

[In2h2o]

@laine we have a similar program at my home mountain, its a great to be able to cover the basics in a day course and I'm sure they will teach you techniques of skinning and how to use avy gear. I see that you are to provide your own skis/ boots. If your mondo size is smaller than 23 you will be limited in boot selection. If you don't have your gear rented already, I would be focusing on where to get appropriately sized boots and skis.....

 

[laine]

Wow, @Slim - Thanks for all the advice. I'm not sure I can get the gear the night before since I have to work Friday and won't be able to get to Truckee early enough. But thanks for the comparison to classic x-country. (I hope I didn't misrepresent my skills there - back in 2008, I picked up some consignment gear - skis, boots, poles for $100 - and played around on them for a couple seasons. But I don't have any formal training and have long since sold that gear.)

Very helpful on how to pack my bag. I'll be borrowing a backpack from ASI, but I don't believe I'll be carrying any skis, so I could potentially use my own backpack. My bike packs won't work as they're all kinda small and definitely would not fit my probe. At least I can pull out one of the hydration bladders to use in a regular pack.

I think the problem I'll have with clothing is choosing and limiting what I wear and what I carry. I have all the gear - unlined softshell pants with vents, breathable, waterproof softshell jacket with vents, various down/synthetic puffies, lots o' SmartWool, spring gloves, biking windshell, etc. I don't want the bag to be too heavy, but I want to be prepared.

I did buy my own beacon, shovel, probe, as I want to start carrying them inbounds on storm and post-storm days. I've gone on two heli-skiing trips, so have had basic avy training on how to use the beacon, how to properly use the probe in a circle, and how to shovel someone out. On the trip earlier this month, one of the guides jumped into a tree well (feet down), and I was one of the three lucky skiers who got to demonstrate the digging process. On the trip, we used the Barryvox S beacons, so I bought the cheaper Barryvox one, since it was familiar to me. We also used Black Diamond probes, so I bought a 280 - I wanted to get things that felt comfortable. I didn't buy the same shovel (the BD Deploy 3) because there was a pink Mammut one on sale!

Thanks for sharing that video series from Utah Avalanche Center - I'm going to try and watch it tonight.

@In2h2o - Rental boots were actually my biggest concern! I wear a 22.5 in my alpine boot and I wanted to make sure that I would be able to find boots and skis. There are several places in Tahoe that run Intro to Backcountry classes and quite a few of them are run out of retail shops, so they provide discounted rental gear for those taking the class.

Last weekend, I actually went into two of the shops in Truckee to make sure they had rental boots that would fit me! One place had two pair of boots in a 23.5. Only one fit well enough. Alpine Skills International (ASI) is connected to a store called The Backcountry (no connection to Backcountry.com) - so I went there afterwards and spoke with the owner, Mike. He said they have several rental options that would fit me. (I couldn't try them on since the store was packed, but I saw the boots they had for sale and they had 5+ different models in stock in my size.) I essentially picked where to take the Intro class based on which shop had better rental options for me and went with ASI/The Backcountry.

 

[In2h2o]

@laine Atomic Hawk XTD W, RoxaR3W, Scarpa F1 and most likely the Lange (couldn't find bsl specs) are a few of the "true" size 22 tour boots. Glad you were able to work out the boots ahead of time!

 

[Ken_R]

I just signed up for an Intro to Backcountry Skiing class through Alpine Skills International in Tahoe. I have absolutely no backcountry experience - though I have x-country skied before. (I have no idea if skinning is at all similar to classic x-country.)

This is the class: http://www.alpineskills.com/bcsm_intro.html

Advice welcome!

Awesome! Let us know how it goes!

Remember, you will spend a LOT more time on the uphill and transitions than skiing downhill. So enjoy that part as well as the down.

 

[Analisa]

Regarding layers, I've found that on top, a base, a shell, an "uphill" insulation layer (synthetic/fleece that's somewhat breathable) and a "breaks" insulation layer (usually a puffy).

And I do the same with mitts - a lighter pair of gloves with the dexterity for transitions for the up, heavier mitts for breaks & the down.

99% of staying warm is just managing warm layers vs. sweaty layers.

 

[Slim]

@laine, the key to “don't want the bag to be too heavy, but I want to be prepared” is in having a system of complementary items, that cover the weather/activity you will be in, but not all kinds of vague ”what if’s”.

My suggested system, which I photographed(minus the baselayer):

1. Windvest
2. lightweight waterproof breathable jacket
3. Light or mid-weight down jacket

This system is very small and lightweight, so easily fits in a tiny backpack (see the sizes compared to pencil for scale, and that’s not even compressed). My specific example weighs 844g for the three items shown, and that’s in Men’s L, with a down jacket that is closer to heavyweight than midweight.

At the same time, this system covers every scenario you might encounter:

• cold morning temps at the start of the climb? - windvest
• warm and sunny in the middle? - just baselayer
• cool and high winds on the summit ridge? -Wear the wpb jacket.
• Lunchbreak? -Wear the puffy, the rain jacket or both, depending on conditions.
• Descent? If it cool or windy? -Rain jacket
• Descent down low and warm temps? - wind vest
• emergency, non moving? Wear everything.

And do not copy what the guide will be wearing! Guides are working at 25% of their maximum, the participants are working at 80% of their max effort.

As @Analisa said, the biggest thing is not getting sweaty on the uphill.

Be bold, be cold is the saying reminding us that we should feel chilly when we start moving.
Which is why I am such a big fan of keeping my puffy on untill the last moment.

In fact, I often wear a different puffy or ski coat around the car while getting ready, so that I can be getting out of the car, getting gear ready etc, nice and toasty and then, at the very last moment, as the first person of the group heads out, I pull that of and throw it in the car.
That way I can start skinning in my thin, breathable layers, without getting cold at the trailhead, or having to deal with packing my ’lunch break puffy‘ at the last minute.

The other part that goes into not getting sweaty is making sure you are wearing super breathable layers.
For baselayers, if they are wool, they need to be very thin.
For windlayers, best is non-membrane/coating, plain microfiber. A mesh back is nice, since your pack is there.
My first look would be at the biking windshell, checking what fabric it is. Most ‘waterproof soft shells’ are heavy and poorly breathable, so that would not be my first choice, but yours might be different.
And then grabbing a mid weight down jacket, and you are set.

 

[In2h2o]

I have found the Patagonia Houdini to be an indispensable layer in my kit ....

 

[Pequenita]

In fact, I often wear a different puffy or ski coat around the car while getting ready, so that I can be getting out of the car, getting gear ready etc, nice and toasty and then, at the very last moment, as the first person of the group heads out, I pull that of and throw it in the car.
That way I can start skinning in my thin, breathable layers, without getting cold at the trailhead, or having to deal with packing my ’lunch break puffy‘ at the last minute.

Actually, @laine remember what the guys at CMH were telling us last year, about wearing a ridiculously huge puffy for standing around waiting? This. I was looking for end-of-season deals last year to find something that would work, but never pulled the trigger because it seemed ridiculous to buy an XL puffy.

It's great you're in an intro class. Everyone will be on the same page. It's almost better to come in knowing nothing because you'll get more guidance from the instructors. I found that having half a clue meant that I was left figuring out the other half on my own, while the guides were helping people who had no clue. Also, pray for a snowboarder with snowshoes. They can be really slow on the uphill and make you feel like an aerobic goddess.

Skinning -- if you feel like you are sliding, look up - it'll get your weight to the heels and give you traction. They'll probably also teach kick turns. Remember that you have knees. I used to always forget that I have knees when doing kick turns, and it makes it comically difficult. Stick this in the back of your head. It's not the most important stuff to learn right now.

Also, seriously, everything @Slim just wrote should be a wiki.

 

[laine]

Also, pray for a snowboarder with snowshoes. They can be really slow on the uphill and make you feel like an aerobic goddess.

This is my goal in life. Hanging with people who have to work harder than I do so I feel like an aerobic goddess.

Also, seriously, everything @Slim just wrote should be a wiki.

Agreed. Maybe we make a pinned post for newbies?

So I looked in my closet to see what I have here vs. Tahoe. I have my biking wind jacket (polyester), which is very light and packs pretty small (photo attached). And I have three fleece options (photo attached) - not sure which I'll choose yet. (I like bright colors.) I also have a capilene option. For an insulated layer, I have a Patagonia Nano Puff, a Patagonia Nano Air (a bit more breathable than the Puff, I think), and an Arcteryx Cerium LT - so I'll bring one of those. I also have the Nano Puff in a vest. They're up in Tahoe, so I have to see how they pack down. Now you can see why I'm in this analysis paralysis.

From what I understand, we start at the shop, and then drive to the trailhead. Not sure how much standing around we have near the cars, but I can always throw an extra jacket in there if we spend a lot of time talking at the trailhead.

Here's the list that ASI sent me:

CLOTHING
Next to skin layers:

• Short sleeve T-shirt – light merino wool or capilene
• Long sleeve light merino wool or capilene zip t-neck
• Merino wool or capilene briefs
• Merino wool or capilene light long johns for very cold conditions
• Ski socks – wool/nylon blend or similar

Outer layers:

• Soft-shell jacket (lightly insulated) or fleece pullover or full zip
• Soft-shell mountain pants (AKA “guide pants” – synthetic stretch woven fabric) - Patagonia, Mammut or similar
• Puff jacket (nylon with synthetic insulation)
• Light outer shell (waterproof/breathable jacket and pants)
• Light wool or fleece hat Fleece neck gaiter for storm conditions
• Sun hat – with visor
• Gloves – medium weight, warm ski gloves and/or light gloves for spring conditions
• Bandana

This is a recommended optimum layering system. Certain items may be substituted but combination of layers should equal the recommended list for warmth, moisture wicking, wind and precipitation resistance, weight and packability.

MISCELLANEOUS

• 1-Liter water container or hydration system
• Sunglasses
• Goggles with light lenses for storm conditions
• Sunscreen – 50+ SPF (small amount in squeeze bottle)
• Lip balm – 30 SPF or greater
• Camera (optional)

FOOD
Bring lunch food for 1 day, including quick-energy snack foods such as energy bars and similar.

ASI PROVIDES
All group guiding equipment, avalanche transceivers, probes, shovels, group first-aid, emergency and repair kits.

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

I am a slow learner, after a total of 8 days touring in Tahoe and always way overdressed going uphill, this past Saturday I shed down to only a mid weight merino wool baselayer and was finally comfortable. It’ll be even warmer this Saturday. Bring sun block.

I’m often the slowest and am getting used to it... One of the guys over the weekend teased me and said I should start going into work earlier to skin inbound before teaching. I honestly don’t have the physical endurance to do both.

 

[Slim]

I would not put to much stock in that list.
It doesn’t take in to account the weather this Saturday, nor the specific items you have to choose from.

So I looked in my closet to see what I have here vs. Tahoe. I have my biking wind jacket (polyester), which is very light and packs pretty small (photo attached).

I think my daughter has the same Marmot windshirt. It’s a plain fabric, without a membrane or coating, and it has mesh side vents. If so, that would for sure be my pick. Not only because of it’s small packed size, but mostly because while skinning, cold won’t be an issue, but wind might be, but at the same time you do not want to get sweaty, so breathability is super important for your active layer.

And I have three fleece options (photo attached) - not sure which I'll choose yet. (I like bright colors.) I also have a capilene option.

If the forecast stays this warm(36-55F), I wouldn’t bring any fleece. When/why would you wear it?

For an insulated layer, I have a Patagonia Nano Puff, a Patagonia Nano Air (a bit more breathable than the Puff, I think), and an Arcteryx Cerium LT - so I'll bring one of those. I also have the Nano Puff in a vest. They're up in Tahoe, so I have to see how they pack down. Now you can see why I'm in this analysis paralysis.

Yes, NanoAir is much more breathable than NanoPuff or Cerium LT. I think for this use case, I would bring the NanoPuff or CeriumLT. Since this is debatable, here is why:
In these warm temps, you should never be skiing in the Nanoair, much to warm. So the use for the insulated jacket is during rest breaks, emergencies, and perhaps, if it is cold, cloudy, and very windy, during the descent, especially if the transition took a long time.

During stationary times, like transitions, breaks or emergencies, the NanoAir will be far less warm, unless you layer a shell over the top. This is a time suck. It would look like this:

1. Reach the top, stop, put pack down.
2. Put on Nanoair
3. put on Shell
4. transition/snack
5. take off shell.
6. Try and keep shell from blowing away or getting wet
7. take off Nano air and pack it
8. put Shell back on
9. Ski down

In contrast, the Cerium and NanoPuff, have windproof shell fabrics, so no need to cover them up. It would look like this:

1. Reach the top, stop, put pack down.
2. put on Shell
3. Put on Nanopuff/CeriumLT
4. transition/snack
5. take off NanoPuff/CeriumLt and pack it
6. Ski down

See how much easier and faster that is? The reduced breathabilty is mostly a benefit for stationary activities, because it keeps you warmer by preventing flash off cooling. In that light, time the don gin of the insulated jacket well: try and let your baselayer dry a bit before you put on the insulated jacket, but do not wait so long that you are starting to become chilled.

I suspect the CeriumLT is a bit warmer? Is the NanoPuff hooded as well? Definitely take the hooded option.
For me, those two jackets would be on the thin side. They would be warm enough for a transition up top, and for a lunch break mid mountain, but If there was an emergency, and I had to spend many hours immobile, it would be iffy. If you like to be on the safe side, and run cold, you might add the Nanoair vest.

Did you find a nice lightweight waterproof breathable hard shell?

From what I understand, we start at the shop, and then drive to the trailhead. Not sure how much standing around we have near the cars, but I can always throw an extra jacket in there if we spend a lot of time talking at the trailhead.

I would certainly bring that extra ‘trailhead’ jacket. It doesn't need to be anything fancy or high tech. Anything reasonably warm that fits over your baselayer and windshirt will do.
If it’s a larger group, you will be standing around! There always is. In England they call it ‘faffing’. You will be ready to go, the guide will be ready to go. But someone else will always be faffing with their stuff, or taking a pee break.

PS, if you have time, give your softshell pants and windshirt a wash with tech detergent and treatment with aftermarket DWR. As @Rainbow Jenny mentioned, first time skinners might fall, so keeping your clothes from getting soaking wet will be nice.

 

[Slim]

I like to bring a small foam sit pad (or piece of car windshield sunscreen). That way I have a dry place to sit, without squashing my sandwiches.
If you want to get fancy, shovel out a hole for your feet, and stick your skis upright in the snow as a backrest, tadah! Mountain lounging!