How does counteracting tighten up a turn?

[Mike-AT]

One more thing, I lifted the comments from a different thread, but they fit here very well:
(https://www.pugski.com/threads/new-zealand-advanced-training-takeaways-2019.16295/page-6#post-411359)

If you are square, ie not countered when you change edges, you will not be able to hold on ice.

Maintain the old counter until after the edge change.

The ice hold issue is definitely a concern, but the bigger problem often seen is that a skier that is unaware of how to properly counteract through transition has difficulty getting into the next turn. This is exhibited by skiers who tend to "hunt" for their next turn when they are in more challenging conditions. They end up leaning into the hill, square to their skis and can't figure out how to initiate their next turn without a big extension move.

I think this describes exactly (one of) my problems(s) @Noodler . Any drills/cues that I could work on?

 

[Noodler]

One more thing, I lifted the comments from a different thread, but they fit here very well:
(https://www.pugski.com/threads/new-zealand-advanced-training-takeaways-2019.16295/page-6#post-411359)




I think this describes exactly (one of) my problems(s) @Noodler . Any drills/cues that I could work on?

I will default to @razie regarding the best drills. What exactly are you trying to improve in your skiing?

 

[Mike-AT]

I will default to @razie regarding the best drills. What exactly are you trying to improve in your skiing?

Well, exactly to get rid of this behavior you mentioned:
>> but the bigger problem often seen is that a skier that is unaware of how to properly counteract through transition has difficulty getting into the next turn. This is exhibited by skiers who tend to "hunt" for their next turn when they are in more challenging conditions. They end up leaning into the hill, square to their skis and can't figure out how to initiate their next turn without a big extension move. <<

I often end up with too much pressure on the inside ski at the end of the turn, caused by banking. So the skis diverge in a V when the uphill ski grips and turns. This happens especially in challenging conditions like off piste terrain. So I think I have (at least partly) an answer to my question here: https://www.pugski.com/threads/turn-mechanics-in-nasty-snow.18544/

In the meantime I figured out my misconception. You should not be square to the skis in the neutral position (transition), but only in the fall line. Duh!

 

[karlo]

Re the video,

karlo, yes, I would say so. He is ensuring that his upper body is oriented towards the outside of the turn. My question was simply about what the mechanism was which makes doing this helpful, what is actually happening to the skis as a result. I suspect it's just that it positions one's hips in such a way that it is easier to increase the edge angle of the skis and get more weight over the outside ski.

He is tipping the skis, with counteraction, to a higher angle to achieve a shorter turn. Doing it that way is not ideal because if one doesn’t Transition across the fall line, the upper body will be facing the wrong direction (should be downhill) and it will be difficult to enter into the next turn; it would require rotation of the upper body to get back to facing downhill. Plus, one will be aft. However, I like it as a drill if one knows where to transition, as a way to stretch the glutes and to mobilize the hip.

The same high edge angle can be more appropriately achieved with lateral angulation with highest angulation at turn-apex, and progressively less away from apex on either side. By doing that, the upper body can always, throughout the entire turn, face the correct direction, making the skier much more nimble, able to initiate a new turn at-will. Doing this, there will be counteraction, facing base of skis as you observe, only when skis cross fall line fall line. That will aid in initiation of next turn as the body “uncoils”, helping to bring the skis around

 

[Rod9301]

Re the video,




He is tipping the skis, with counteraction, to a higher angle to achieve a shorter turn. Doing it that way is not ideal because if one doesn’t Transition across the fall line, the upper body will be facing the wrong direction (should be downhill) and it will be difficult to enter into the next turn; it would require rotation of the upper body to get back to facing downhill. Plus, one will be aft. However, I like it as a drill if one knows where to transition, as a way to stretch the glutes and to mobilize the hip.

The same high edge angle can be more appropriately achieved with lateral angulation with highest angulation at turn-apex, and progressively less away from apex on either side. By doing that, the upper body can always, throughout the entire turn, face the correct direction, making the skier much more nimble, able to initiate a new turn at-will. Doing this, there will be counteraction, facing base of skis as you observe, only when skis cross fall line fall line. That will aid in initiation of next turn as the body “uncoils”, helping to bring the skis around

Actually, the upper body should be facing the outside ski at pretty much all the time. At the bottom of the turn, this is downhill. In the beginning 1/4 of the turn, it's to the outside of the turn.

 

[karlo]

Actually, the upper body should be facing the outside ski at pretty much all the time. At the bottom of the turn, this is downhill. In the beginning 1/4 of the turn, it's to the outside of the turn.

Do you mean, in normal skiing, when skiing down fall line, at apex of turn, upper body should face the base of skis, skis whose tips are pointed downhill?

 

[Rod9301]

Do you mean, in normal skiing, when skiing down fall line, at apex of turn, upper body should face the base of skis, skis whose tips are pointed downhill?

Absolutely. Look at pictures of racers, this is what they do.

As soon as i change edges, i start rotating hips so they gave the outside ski.


It makes a huge difference in how the skis grip on very icy terrain

 

[Noodler]

Just keep in mind that we don't counteract just for the sake of counteracting. All of our upper body movements are in support of what's happening down below. They should be "progressive" in nature and build toward their peak points in their RoM in conjunction with the skis tipping to the highest angles. Quite often we see skiers get too caught up in their focus on upper body movements and lose the fact that these are "supporting" actions we take to improve the performance of our skis on the snow.

 

[Rod9301]

Just keep in mind that we don't counteract just for the sake of counteracting. All of our upper body movements are in support of what's happening down below. They should be "progressive" in nature and build toward their peak points in their RoM in conjunction with the skis tipping to the highest angles. Quite often we see skiers get too caught up in their focus on upper body movements and lose the fact that these are "supporting" actions we take to improve the performance of our skis on the snow.

You're right. But counteracting is needed to slow more angulation, as lemaster showed very well in his book.

 

[karlo]

Look at pictures of racers, this is what they do.

I don’t think racers do it every time they are on high edge angle, and for the sake of getting on high edge angle. I think they are anticipating where their body needs to go for the next gate. You’ve seen videos of racers counteracting over and over again, turn to turn?

Here’s Ligety freeskiing. No gates to get around, no gates to anticipate. I don’t see a lot of counteracting if any



As recreational skiers, that’s not the case, unless... if we are in a double fall line. Then, one turn will be more counteracted, the other turn not at all.

 

[Noodler]

I don't know what to say as a reply without getting myself in trouble. Suffice to say that LeMaster is not my source of correct skiing physics and Ted's free skiing is not a model for the skiing technique I am trying to learn.

 

[karlo]

don't know what to say as a reply without getting myself in trouble

lol. Lots of ways to ski. I skied with a friend today that simply cannot bend his ankle and ends up aft. he loves skiing and had a great day. and, what a beautiful day it was.

 

[Moose32]

SUPER PHYSICS NERD STUFF THAT IS NOT RELEVANT AT ALL INBOUND - PLEASE SKIP:
Higgs boson
"According to the Standard Model, a field of the necessary kind (the Higgs field) exists throughout space and breaks certain symmetry laws of the electroweak interaction.[e] Via the Higgs mechanism, this field causes the gauge bosons of the weak force to be massive at all temperatures below an extreme high value. When the weak force bosons acquire mass, this affects their range, which becomes very small.[f] Furthermore, it was later realised that the same field would also explain, in a different way, why other fundamental constituents of matter (including electrons and quarks) have mass."

And since Skiing is all about moving mass to fun places by interacting with a gravity well...

Correct, this has nothing to do with the Higgs Boson. I'm an idiot, but my old man is one of the original theorists credited with the discovery of the God Particle (ask Higgs Boson) back in 1964.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Correct, this has nothing to do with the Higgs Boson. I'm an idiot, but my old man is one of the original theorists credited with the discovery of the God Particle (ask Higgs Boson) back in 1964.

I read the book The God Particle by Leon Lederman. He was pissed he didn't get the Nobel. Or did he? Did your dad?

 

[Moose32]

I read the book The God Particle by Leon Lederman. He was pissed he didn't get the Nobel. Or did he? Did your dad?

LL got a Nobel, in the late 1980's I believe.
While all the teams (6 physicists) have shared other major physics prizes, my Dad was snubbed by the Swedes in 2013 even though they had the best of the three papers.
Englert and Higgs got it. Very political.
Anything I write after this sentence I would likely regret or have way too much detail on how it all went down.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Moose32, sorry to hear your dad got snubbed. Politics is everpresent and it sucks.

 

[Moose32]

@Moose32, sorry to hear your dad got snubbed. Politics is everpresent and it sucks.

Thanks. This brief sidebar sent me down memory lane a bit. Also helping is it is Nobel Week (physics is always Tuesday), and my old man is now 85.
Here are articles in the Japan Times (front page) and the Economist from this week in 2013. There were many more.
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent - and posting about the God Particle.
Yesterday's news...on to Soelden!

 

[LiquidFeet]

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Those were good reads. They reminded me of my life back when I was a voracious reader in popular physics.