How DO we ski? AN INTERESTING POSITION.

[CalG]

From the "Skier's Manifesto" blog

I had hypothesized that the SR was the ‘secret’ of the world’s best skiers. If I were right, these skiers weren’t flexing the shaft of their boots to put pressure on the front of the ski. They were flexing their ankles to set up the static preload that enables the SR. I had concluded that it wasn’t so much that elite skiers knew how to stand on their skis, but more a case that they were able to stand on their skis in a way that enabled them to use the SR. It seemed probable to me that these skiers had acquired a feel for the SR when they were first learning to ski. Once the feel was acquired, they were able to select boots and adjust them as required to enable the SR. The majority of skiers never acquire a feel for the SR when they first start to ski because the design and structure of their ski boots prevents this. If they don’t learn the feel of the SR early in skiing, the odds are great that they never will acquire it. If my hypothesis were correct, then the entire ski industry had gotten it wrong.

note :SR being a state of "reflex" in the above statement.

Does our equipment hold us back? Sometimes I think so.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Something I keep harping on is balance and understanding how it feels, along with how to achieve it. When I look at seemingly good skiers from the lift it easy to see when their balance is upset transitioning from ice, to sticky clump, to whatever particularly in transitions. They get off balance and everything suffers.

Unfortunately few if any practice let alone understand balance.

This article portrays this.

Fortunately, more than several skiers on this site, directly or indirectly practice this.

 

[Dakine]

Want to learn about balance?
Try surfing or windsurfing.
Even stand up paddling will teach you to stay off you heels or go in the drink.
There is incentive to learn balance when its lack means a swim with the sharks.

 

[CalG]

To the point,
When ski equipment never allows one to feel "balance", how can one learn?

 

[oldschoolskier]

To the point,
When ski equipment never allows one to feel "balance", how can one learn?

People have gotten lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Modern equipment allows mediocrity to look good, those that truly want to be good will learn. All the simple drills required to learn of yesteryear still apply today.

 

[Posaune]

You put this in the general skiing area, and I'm generally a skier that's been doing it for over 50 years, yet I've never heard of SR and have no idea what you're talking about when you use the term (if it is a term) "state of "reflex.""

If you want us to understand, you need to define, otherwise put this in the instruction section.

 

[CalG]

The skiers manifesto blog defines the context.

It is not my term.

 

[Tony Storaro]

To the point,
When ski equipment never allows one to feel "balance", how can one learn?

Inline skating.
You get the balance wrong, you end up on your ass. Like, immediately, the next second.
Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat..... After 100s of falls you will get it right.

And also-ski without poles-extremely important...well at least for me it was...

 

[Cheizz]

The skiers manifesto blog defines the context.

It is not my term.

Still, you could explain a bit.

 

[Scruffy]

skimoves.me

 

[ADKmel]

LOL--- Point them down hill and gravity does the rest..

Yes of course Balance is involved, yes skiing No poles is awesome way to learn your limits.. no out riggers to stand you back up.

 

[jack97]

Maybe it's a promotion for cabrio boot

That said, I not sure if the ski equipment is preventing us learning to feel balance or whether it takes some amount of mileage to get this type of skill.

 

[LiquidFeet]

As far as I can tell, "SR" in The Skier's Manifesto refers to Spinal Reflex. There is a lot about spinal reflexes (there are different types) online.

The Skier's Manifesto writer, David MacPhail, has trouble saying things clearly, and his website is a tangled mess to navigate. His primary interest is ski boots. @Scruffy linked this page (below) from the website. It may help clarify what MacPhail is trying to get across in the quote in the OP. Notice at the bottom that he explains that the "SR Stance" is useful in evaluating ski boots.

By the way, MacPhail is a balance-on-the-ball-of-foot guy. I think.
https://skimoves.me/2018/11/13/learn-the-sr-stance-in-3-easy-steps/

I have revised the post to clarify that the SR Stance applies to the load phase of a turn that occurs in what is commonly referred to as the bottom of a turn and that the joint angles of the SR Stance are configured by the major muscles in isometric contraction. When external forces cause the muscles to lengthen or stretch this will trigger the myotatic or stretch reflex. Because the myotactic reflex is a spinal reflex it is activated in 1 to 2 thousandths of a second. As such, it is both rapid and powerful.

The SR Stance configures some of the most powerful muscles in the body in a state of isometric contraction so that the powerful myotactic stretch reflex can maintain the angles of the ankle, knee, and hip and keep the CoM of a skier in balance on their outside ski in the most powerful position in the load phase of a turn.

The SR Stance is best learned outside the ski boot in an environment where the feet and legs are free from any influences. One of the benefits of learning an SR Stance outside the ski boot is that, once learned, it provides a reference against which to assess whether a ski boot supports the functional parameters of the skier. If it doesn’t, the SR Stance can be used as a reference to guide equipment modification and establish when and if it meets the functional requirements of the skier.

McPhail's concluding statement:
If you bounce up and down lightly in the position in Step 3., the angles of the joints in your stance should return to the static preload position between bounces.

With the ski boot and Zeppa-Delta ramp angles configured to enable an SR stance, your ski boots will work for you and with you instead of the other way around.

 

[Scruffy]

By the way, MacPhail is a balance-on-the-ball-of-foot guy. I think.

No, I don't think so. David promotes using whole anatomy of the foot, esp. the heel to 1st metatarsal within skiing. The SR is about tensioning the superficial back line, starting with the plantar fascia, to enable structural integrity from foot to core.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Scruffy, I looked again. Here's a new guess: MacPhail is a rock-heel-to-toe guy. What do you think?
https://skimoves.me/2017/09/06/the-mechanics-of-balance-on-the-outside-ski-heelforefoot-rocker/

THE MECHANICS OF BALANCE ON THE OUTSIDE SKI: HEEL/FOREFOOT ROCKER
"The kinetic flow of pressure is from the heel to the ball of the foot and big toe. This is what should happen in the transition phase of a turn sequence when a skier begins to transfer more weight to the inside foot and ski from the outside foot and ski. Up until the start of the transition, the skier’s center of mass is behind the inside foot with the majority of pressure under the heel on the transverse center of the foot and ski where is exerts an inversion torque that is tending to rotate the ski into contact with the surface of the snow. The skier maintains the edge angle by applying a countering eversion torque with a combination of external rotation-abduction of the inside leg."

 

[LiquidFeet]

My thoughts on MacPhail's website.

 

[tch]

My thoughts on MacPhail's website:

WRITE IN SIMPLE F*CKING ENGLISH!!!

 

[Scruffy]

@Scruffy, I looked again. Here's a new guess: MacPhail is a rock-heel-to-toe guy. What do you think?
https://skimoves.me/2017/09/06/the-mechanics-of-balance-on-the-outside-ski-heelforefoot-rocker/

THE MECHANICS OF BALANCE ON THE OUTSIDE SKI: HEEL/FOREFOOT ROCKER
"The kinetic flow of pressure is from the heel to the ball of the foot and big toe. This is what should happen in the transition phase of a turn sequence when a skier begins to transfer more weight to the inside foot and ski from the outside foot and ski. Up until the start of the transition, the skier’s center of mass is behind the inside foot with the majority of pressure under the heel on the transverse center of the foot and ski where is exerts an inversion torque that is tending to rotate the ski into contact with the surface of the snow. The skier maintains the edge angle by applying a countering eversion torque with a combination of external rotation-abduction of the inside leg."

Yes he promotes a heel to toe movement during transition to facilitate foot eversion of the outside ski resulting in greater edge angles.

 

[CalG]

Here is the entire reference.

ZEPPA-DELTA ANGLE AND THE STRETCH REFLEX


Never heard of the Stretch Reflex (SR)? You’re probably not alone. Even though the SR was the central focus of the research I did in 1991 with the Birdcage, I have yet to encounter anyone in skiing who knows what it is, let alone how it can function to assist skier balance by maintaining the major joint angles associated with a strong stance. The SR is what enables the world’s best skiers to ski with precision and with a fraction of the effort of lesser skiers.
After Nancy Greene Raine began supporting my work in 1978 and I started to work with world class racers and coaches I began to hear the comment that skiers like the legendary Toni Sailor or Nancy Green Raine ‘knew how to stand on their skis’. This implied that the reason other skiers could not ski like the Toni Sailors and Nancy Green Raines of the world was that they didn’t know how to stand on their skis. I found this puzzling. If it were that simple (it wasn’t and still isn’t), why hadn’t someone figured out how Sailor and Raine stood on their skis and started teaching the rest of the skiers how to stand the same way?
It was also about 1978 that the story began to take root within the ranks of the ski industry that ‘the foot functions best in skiing when it’s joints are completely immobilized in the ski boot’. The holy grail of skiing, a perfect fit of the ski boot that precisely mirrors the shape of a skier’s foot, emerged soon after. In this paradigm, if tight was good, tighter was better.
Aside from the obvious contradiction (the foot functions best when it is rendered dysfunctional?), it was a good story. On the surface, it made sense to most skiers, myself included, right up until I watched Nancy Green Raine undo all the buckles on her boots and ski better than any other skier on the hill. In observing and speaking with numerous elite skiers, a consistent pattern began to emerge; they all skied with their boots relatively loose compared to the boots of the average skier or racer; a stark contradiction to the ‘tighter is better’ story. A tight fit/loose fit paradox existed. This caused me to start to question the official position on boot fit.
By 1989, I had hypothesized that the SR was the ‘secret’ of the world’s best skiers. If I were right, these skiers weren’t flexing the shaft of their boots to put pressure on the front of the ski. They were flexing their ankles to set up the static preload that enables the SR. I had concluded that it wasn’t so much that elite skiers knew how to stand on their skis, but more a case that they were able to stand on their skis in a way that enabled them to use the SR. It seemed probable to me that these skiers had acquired a feel for the SR when they were first learning to ski. Once the feel was acquired, they were able to select boots and adjust them as required to enable the SR. The majority of skiers never acquire a feel for the SR when they first start to ski because the design and structure of their ski boots prevents this. If they don’t learn the feel of the SR early in skiing, the odds are great that they never will acquire it. If my hypothesis were correct, then the entire ski industry had gotten it wrong. The Birdcage experiments validated my hypothesis. [end quote]

But for myself, I care little about the "stretch reflex" for it's own merits. It may be "magic donkey ears" for all I care.
The issue is "IF I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED IT, HOW CAN I DEVELOP IT"S BEST APPLICATION TO SKIING?"

Distilled
How do I know How I ski?

 

[Paul Lutes]

Wait ...... so you're saying having a free heel is the Holy Grail for proper balance?!?!?!

I knew it! I'm available for instruction, but I'm now charging a premium rate.