Higher edge angles

[Pete in Idaho]

Have noticed this year my edge angles aren't very high at all. Admit I am 77yrs but thinking someone here might know a few drills/tricks/suggestions that might work for me. Thanks

 

[slowrider]

 

[geepers]

While that's an interesting vid I do wonder how suitable 16 y/o ski racer movement patterns are for a 77 y/o.

There's probably some observation of current performance required prior to making any recommendations - @Pete in Idaho - do you have any vid of yourself carving, preferably wide turns?

 

[François Pugh]

1. Softer flexing skis that don't resist being bent into a curve.
2. Narrow skis (<70 mm) that are easier to tip on edge on hard snow.
3. Sharp edges.
4. Hard snow that will support your weight when skis are tipped to a high angle.
5. Upper body separation including angulation and rotational separation.
6. Get that inside knee out of the way.
7. Make sure you are pulling your feet behind you.
8. Make sure you are tipping that inside foot onto its little toe edge.
9. When the outside ski is nicely loaded up make a sudden flex to release move that will shoot you into the next turn with a big edge angle PDQ (pretty damn quick). Careful with this one.
Drills:
Dragging outside pole in longer turns is a start.
Picture frame drill (for rotational separation).
Horizontal poles held in front with same horizontal alignment as horizon and your shoulders and keeping a vertical spine (for angulation).

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I've done a few lessons with a man who is 75 and his first question for me was "how do I get angles like Ted Ligety". He's been doing our Saturday race training clinics (which I am not involved in) and his skiing is a bit of a train wreck. My first thought's were "You can't. You are 70-something, you are not a gym rat." He says "the caches say I can't because I'm too old and not in good enough shape", I'm thinking "yup". But the real question is why would he want Ted's angles? He's not gong 75 mph over the Hausbergkante. It's just not appropriate, so focusing on big angles I think was compromising everything he does. In fact he "high-sided" and broke his pelvis a couple of seasons ago. What I have been working on with him is trying to start generating his edging with his feet and not treating them like they are just hunks of meat that hold his boots onto his legs. Instead of trying to fling himself across the skis to make "big angles" and end up with an outrigger and his weight on his inside ski. He is starting to work from the feet and develop a platform that he can balance against.

 

[François Pugh]

P.S.
If your boots are a lot wider than your skis, be careful of boot out
P.P.S.
The goal is a turn with more g-force; the higher edge angles are just a side effect of said turns.

 

[Henry]

Pete, how is your core strength? Back flexibility? Counter-rotation flexibility? As we old codgers know well, that all gets more difficult every year. Full counter rotation facilitates angulation, and more angulation allows for easier edge angles. Core strength is needed for angulation. Flexibility is always useful. Yoga, anyone?

Or, are you now using wider skis? Wide skis are more difficult to get up on edge. If you have them, use the narrowest skis that give you the flotation you need in the day's snow conditions.

 

[François Pugh]

P.S.
If your boots are a lot wider than your skis, be careful of boot out
P.P.S.
The goal is a turn with more g-force; the higher edge angles are just a side effect of said turns.

Sorry, poor choice of words, not just a side effect, but also needed to make those turns (ergo, a cause).

 

[Bendu]

angles start with balance. If you are unable to maintain balance on your outside ski you can not get "big" angles. Beside why do you want big angles?

 

[graham418]

Beside why do you want big angles?

Because its FUN!

 

[Coach13]

For the majority of us who aren’t racing, isn’t getting the skis on edge earlier a good substitute/alternative to simply higher edge angles?

 

[François Pugh]

angles start with balance. If you are unable to maintain balance on your outside ski you can not get "big" angles. Beside why do you want big angles?

The bigger your edge angle, the tighter the turn and the more satisfying the g-forces.

 

[Bendu]

well sure, but also more G force means more effort in resisting said G forces

the man is 77.........I would be much more content with precise soft skiing

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Waiting for the dirt to turn white and the lifts to spin.

While that's an interesting vid I do wonder how suitable 16 y/o ski racer movement patterns are for a 77 y/o.

YEP good video though.


There's probably some observation of current performance required prior to making any recommendations - @Pete in Idaho - do you have any vid of yourself carving, preferably wide turns?

1. Softer flexing skis that don't resist being bent into a curve.
2. Narrow skis (<70 mm) that are easier to tip on edge on hard snow.
3. Sharp edges.
4. Hard snow that will support your weight when skis are tipped to a high angle.
5. Upper body separation including angulation and rotational separation.
6. Get that inside knee out of the way.
7. Make sure you are pulling your feet behind you.
8. Make sure you are tipping that inside foot onto its little toe edge.
9. When the outside ski is nicely loaded up make a sudden flex to release move that will shoot you into the next turn with a big edge angle PDQ (pretty damn quick). Careful with this one.
Drills:
Dragging outside pole in longer turns is a start.
Picture frame drill (for rotational separation).
Horizontal poles held in front with same horizontal alignment as horizon and your shoulders and keeping a vertical spine (for angulation).

Good points, some I do automatically but i.e., outside pole, I forgot.

I've done a few lessons with a man who is 75 and his first question for me was "how do I get angles like Ted Ligety". He's been doing our Saturday race training clinics (which I am not involved in) and his skiing is a bit of a train wreck. My first thought's were "You can't. You are 70-something, you are not a gym rat." He says "the caches say I can't because I'm too old and not in good enough shape", I'm thinking "yup". But the real question is why would he want Ted's angles? He's not gong 75 mph over the Hausbergkante. It's just not appropriate, so focusing on big angles I think was compromising everything he does. In fact he "high-sided" and broke his pelvis a couple of seasons ago. What I have been working on with him is trying to start generating his edging with his feet and not treating them like they are just hunks of meat that hold his boots onto his legs. Instead of trying to fling himself across the skis to make "big angles" and end up with an outrigger and his weight on his inside ski. He is starting to work from the feet and develop a platform that he can balance against.

Ted Ligety I am not. 75 yr old skiing like Ligety is pretty darn laughable.

For the majority of us who aren’t racing, isn’t getting the skis on edge earlier a good substitute/alternative to simply higher edge angles?

Tip before you turn. Never really thought this way. If anything I don't start my turns early enough
and wouldn't jambing my turns be a hindrance to high edges? Have to try this to see what happpens.

QUOTE="Bendu, post: 438876, member: 6266"]
well sure, but also more G force means more effort in resisting said G forces

the man is 77.........I would be much more content with precise soft skiing.

I do a lot of that for sure but it is feeling like I am losing my edge angles.

Thanks everyone for your input. Don't really have video of my skiing. Avatar pic. but no edge angles there, in fact you can't see my skis. Great day.

 

[François Pugh]

Even an old weak leg can maintain a g or two if it's straight, as it should be at the apex.

 

[oldschoolskier]

@Pete in Idaho who carries about high edge angles, I don’t.

My first concern is do you have a good set on your edges, without it a high edge angle (HEA) is worthless as it just slide out.

Second is, are you pulling the turns that you want, if so why do you need HEA, if not compromise and get a tighter R ski better quality ski.

Third, at 77, anyone who bitches you don’t have enough HEA gave’m S..T and say at 77 I’m still skiing great bugger off.

My 2 cents

 

[François Pugh]

@Pete in Idaho looking at your avatar, that snow will not support high edge angles. A flat ski is supported vertically by the area of snow under the ski, which is the base area. A ski tipped to 90 degrees is supported vertically by the area of snow under the ski which is the edge area. Between 0 and 90 degrees the area under the ski varies (as the cosine of the angle), and force is pressure times area. The vertical (up) force must be able to support your entire weight, and you need enough area under the ski for that.
Maybe you don't use high edge angles because they are not appropriate for your conditions.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

@Pete in Idaho who carries about high edge angles, I don’t.

My first concern is do you have a good set on your edges, without it a high edge angle (HEA) is worthless as it just slide out.

Second is, are you pulling the turns that you want, if so why do you need HEA, if not compromise and get a tighter R ski better quality ski.

Third, at 77, anyone who bitches you don’t have enough HEA gave’m S..T and say at 77 I’m still skiing great bugger off.

My 2 cents

Wow, I have been called a lot of things in my life but this is the FIRST "Bugger off" I have ever received. I still have a big smile. And edges are fine at least on the skis.

@Pete in Idaho looking at your avatar, that snow will not support high edge angles. A flat ski is supported vertically by the area of snow under the ski, which is the base area. A ski tipped to 90 degrees is supported vertically by the area of snow under the ski which is the edge area. Between 0 and 90 degrees the area under the ski varies (as the cosine of the angle), and force is pressure times area. The vertical (up) force must be able to support your entire weight, and you need enough area under the ski for that.
Maybe you don't use high edge angles because they are not appropriate for your conditions.

Now I didn't know all that stuff, amazing but if I thought of all that when skiing you'd have to commit me 1/2 way down. Great answer and yes I am smiling right now too.

 

[François Pugh]

It's amazing how quickly that stuff came to my mind as young engineer back in the early 1980s, when I tried my first high edge angle turn in deep snow after 15 years or so of skiing on hardpack, almost as quickly as my skis disappeared on their way to China.

 

[oldschoolskier]

BTW that Bugger off was meant for you to say.