Hellytech Performance and Professional fabric review

Discussion in 'Softgoods: Clothing, Helmets, Goggles, and More' started by Josh Matta, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. Jwrags

    Jwrags Aka pwdrhnd Skier

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    Hmm. Seems as if the solution is to wear it inside out:roflmao:
     
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  2. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    Thanks


    Look at the differences: The Sabre only has Gore-Tex standard, Rush uses the Gore-Tex PRO, does it make a lot of difference?

    Why Rush doesn't indicate any DWR treatment, isn't necessary reaply DWR from time to time like Nikwash?

    [​IMG]

    What other brands and models do you recommend to see?
     
  3. Analisa

    Analisa Out on the slopes Skier

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    @pack21 - I'd reach out to Arcteryx to confirm construction on the Sabre. On the item page under construction, it cites it's Gore Pro. Based on the pricepoint, that also feels right. I'd expect 3L Gore Performance ("basic" Goretex) to run cheaper.

    The reason the Rush is more expensive is due to the fact it's geared a bit more towards backcountry skiing - the seam work is tailored for a bigger variety of movements than the Sabre, like the articulated elbows, under arm gusseting to keep the jacket from riding up when you lift your arms and getting bunched up in a glacier harness, the drop hem in the back means you can bend over and get in your pack without getting a lot of wind up your jacket compared to a straight hem. There's an extra dump pocket in the Rush. It's more tailored than the Sabre. Curved seamwork costs more than straight, and each one adds more cost to the product, so that's where the $75 difference comes from.

    I'm 1000% sure both come with a DWR treatment. A fluorocarbon treatment on any jacket worth over $50 is industry standard, and it helps take stress on the membrane. When it's the membrane transmitting moisture out of the fabric instead of the DWR keeping it from entering, it impacts the breatheability. It'd be completely unreasonable for Arcteryx to put a fancy, high tech, expensive membrane in their jacket and not add a comparatively super cheap DWR treatment. Regardless of whether your jacket comes with a DWR treatment, products like Nikwax are important. Fluorocarbons are pretty strongly bonded to the fabric, but it does shed off over time (and kills all the fish). Drying the garment after washing helps since they're heat activated. And then replacing them with Nikwax reinforces it as they wear off. Products like Nikwax (or Grangers or Arcteryx Nu) are way more environmentally friendly, but don't last nearly as long. Spray and wash-in both work. I personally go for spray since I use it for items like down jackets as well where I'd use a separate down wash for cleaning. And sometimes I commit the sin of spraying without washing first.

    In terms of your question about 3L basic vs. 3L pro, there's something called a Ret test that measures breathability on a scale of 1-30, where 1 is like a breezy linen shirt and a 30 is completely unbreathable. A trashbag or one of those giant, hot mascot costumes would sit somewhere between 20-30. eVent sits somewhere around 3-5, Gore Pro between 4-6, and standard 3L Gore is around 7-10. Basically it's the difference between "excellent" and "good". There's another method called JIS that measures the g/m2 of water that can pass through a membrane in 24 hours (if you've ever heard of 20/20 waterproofing - it's the standard for "pretty good" - the second 20 refers to 20,000 g/m2 for breathability). Gore Pro & eVent are at 25,000+, whereas 3L Gore is 10,000-15,000. A third method called DMPC shows that eVent shows a bigger difference between eVent & Gore Pro (with eVent outperforming).

    Regarding your question on other jackets, that's really tough. I think the vast majority of brands are offering good jackets that meet the needs of particular customer niches at fair prices. It's about finding the right jacket with the right features for the right customer.

    You mentioned breathability was a top consideration. Would you consider eVent even though it needs to be washed frequently or would you sacrifice some amount of fabric breathe for Gore Pro that needs to be washed 1-2 times a year? I'd get an idea of the construction & features you want (pit zips? pockets? those soft thumbhole cuffs or standard velcro?) - there are a handful of options that are competitive to the Sabre & the Rush with some small differences in fit & features that might be better for you.
     
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  4. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    Thank you very much for your help, you are a true teacher in ski clothing.


    From what i understand, did Arc'teryx tell you that the Sabre model is made of Gore-Tex PRO? From this season or next season? is that even by looking the logo needlework, in Rush it is clear that it is PRO, in the sleeve of the 2018/19 Sabre doesn't have the PRO needlework.

    Look:

    Rush with PRO LoGo

    [​IMG]

    Sabre don't Have the PRO logo
    [​IMG]


    Hyvent:
    Yes i alread have an day jacket NorthFace jacket with HyVent, for skiing a PU jacket but it condenses inside, so now i would like to try something really excellent for the wet and rough days.

    Fit:
    Today I tried a arcteryx Beta Arc Gore-Tex PRO AR from a friend, size L, with just a T-shirt could say that was okay, but then i put a 700 down and disappeared that gap i always like to have to skiing, I have to see better the measures of the site, my question is if the measures presented by for Arc'tyrx jackets take into account if the jacket is regular or relax fit, if they take that into account I think i should bet on an XL


    Thanks
     
  5. Analisa

    Analisa Out on the slopes Skier

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    @pack21 - weird, yeah, most sites make no mention of Pro, but if you expand the "Full Product Features" on the Arcteryx page, it lists it as the membrane. I'd bet the spot I'm referencing is the mistake since it's the only mention of Pro. I think the Sabre might be a tad overpriced. Looking at something like the Sabre LT (uses 3L C-knit with the knit backing), it's super similar construction to the Armada Lifted. Not necessarily egregious, especially without being able to see the seamwork, but an MSRP starting with $5XX seems more in line.

    It won't be hard to beat Hyvent. With the exception of Hyvent Alpha, it's a coating instead of a membrane and has a breathability rating of ~12,000 g/m2.

    In terms of fit, the measurements on the Arcteryx size guide are for body measurement - your waist, inseam, etc, and doesn't vary between relaxed/regular/next to skin fit. Those fit types either have hard specs (relaxed is always 3in larger than regular) or there's a more general guideline in fit review (relaxed fit should fit over the Thorium AR puffy). They consider what the end use of the garment is, where the person will be, how they'll be layering, etc.

    The Beta AR is a regular fit, and it's a really general use jacket that's not designed for any particular sport, but supposed to be okay enough to use across hiking, mountaineering, a little rock & ice climbing, skiing, etc. That customer needs enough room to layer, but not so much where they need to be worried about getting their jacket caught in their belay device. A large sounds like it might be perfect for relaxed fit but that you might want to size up for regular fit.

    If you're digging the Gore Pro construction, the Armada Balfour, Norrona Lofoten, Patagonia PowSlayer, & NF Freethinker might be worth a look.
     
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  6. neonorchid

    neonorchid Out on the slopes Skier

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  7. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    Interesting, but seems to start with a big problem, at 2:20 of the video she says they don't use pitzips because it's so breathable, in my point of view this is wrong, because NF is mixing the concept of breathability with temperature regulation, the first has to do with elimination of condensation caused by sweat, the other with temperature regulation we want at certainly moment.

    Not having pitzips we can no longer regulate the temperature down. The concept of not needing pitzips can be accepted in the case of sofshell, in which a person wears a highly breathable jacket and a very fresh baselayer for the whole day, as he knows that heat will be all day on. Now for a hardshell, not having pitzips is one step behind.

    If in morning we take a hardshell it's because the weather is bad, not so good or it may have high variation during the day, and without pitzips in the hottest periods of the day, i willn't be able to reduce the temperature unless i open the front zip, which obviously isn't a solution in this price range, in the case of the pitzips under the arms, which for me is the best location, allows to raise the temperature, if there is cold wind at lift chairs level, closing the arms, soon afterwards we refresh during the descent with the open arms and movements .

    I honestly didn't understand the idea of NF. If the menbrana futurelight really confirms to be very good, the second generation of jackets will certainly have pitzips, but as i said at the moment, without pitzips is a step back that i doubt would eat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  8. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    Thank you very much for the good indications, in this price range we can't make mistakes of choice. Today i took body measurements, and went to see the arc'teryx table , as suspected i'm between L-XL, so i can safely go XL for relaxed fit without be boxy.

    height=5.90ft
    [​IMG]

    As for the option of other brands, there is a new variable, which will limit my choice, which are the only two pockets Arcteryx uses in front, had never seen how they are, until i tried my friend's Beta jackety, I fell in love with pockets!!! They are so large and and in the chest, it will be a condition in my choice, only 2 pockets like the Arcteryx uses, is very well thought, and i bet that in hot days i can leave the backpack at home, this pockets are so well placed, that i can put 1 soft flask 250ml* in each pocket , the radio, 1 sandwich, 1 snack bar.

    *https://www.salomon.com/en-no/shop-emea/product/soft-flask-250ml-8oz.html#848=12990&2018=14828

    I was really suprised with the arc'teryx front pockets, love at first time. :)
     
  9. neonorchid

    neonorchid Out on the slopes Skier

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    If it surpasses Polartec NeoShell for breathability and the fit is correct for me, i.e., no armpit wedgies, no uncomfortable neckline and the collar doesn't wanna dislocate my mandible fully zipped hood up over the helmet, I'll buy one, and I already have an Arc'teryx Sidewinder Shell made of the lattest generation Gore-tex Pro fabric. Prior gen gore-tex pro was not even close to being as breathable as the updated current gen fabric which is still behind NeoShell.
     
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  10. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    Of course, as i said it seems interesting, although it seems to me that for people who easily overheat the lack of pitzips seems to me to be a problem.

    In my case i like to take hot layers if it's very cold at first hours or in lift chairs if it's cold wind, but i suffer from overheating when the sun opens with no wind or i'm skiing something under stress. Now of course, there are people who don't overheat easily even under various layers, if that is your case, i don't see any problem believing that the new jacket will be very good with this new membrane.
     
  11. neonorchid

    neonorchid Out on the slopes Skier

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    ^ they say it's thin and lightweight, should be easy enough to stuff in a pocket or pack. IDK. It's too early to call it. I plan on checking out the line when in stores come fall 2019.
     
  12. Analisa

    Analisa Out on the slopes Skier

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    I think an important consideration is also the waterproof rating - 10k on Neoshell, 15k on OR Ascentshell (which is electrospun and I believe the best indicator for how Futurelight will perform), Gore Pro & eVent are 28-30k.

    It's less about which membrane is best and more about which one serves a customer best. As someone in the PNW who skis in the rain and hates the feeling of wind cutting through my jackets, I reach for a thick, cheap PU laminate for inbounds skiing & went with Gore Pro for my alpine shell (it's a little breezy sometimes). But I could see that changing if I lived somewhere drier or ran warm (jealous of all of you!)
     
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  13. Noodler

    Noodler My win/win/win for 2020: Ikon/LL/A-Basin Skier

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    I just have to say that Analisa is a treasure trove of knowledge on the subject of ski clothing. Her contributions are highly valued here on the forum. I haven't read anywhere what her background is. @Analisa do you mind sharing?
     
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  14. Analisa

    Analisa Out on the slopes Skier

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    @Noodler - sure thing.

    Most of what I know, I learned from buying my own hardshell. I don't have a formal background in apparel or textiles. My degree's in psychology and I started in inventory & supply chain management after college. I didn't get why there were shells from $50 to $600, and I'm from a family that does a lot of purchasing research. I got a Consumer Reports subscription for college graduation and my dad took 2-3 years doing research before deciding what siding to put on our house. My mom's a TJMaxx queen who takes a lot of pride in getting killer deals on nice items.

    I knew that pricier was better - in college, I tried to climb Cotopaxi (a glaciated 19er) in a clearance rack, kid's size North Face raincoat from Sports Authority and a pair of Columbia Saturday Trail pants and it didn't go too hot. But I wanted to be sure I knew what I was getting for the extra cost.

    The kicker is that the outdoor apparel industry does an extraordinarily piss poor job at helping customers navigate those decisions. One of my biggest pet peeves is how Goretex requires manufacturers to put the same GIGANTIC hang tag on all of their items as if they all have the same quality and performance capabilities. I lead a PNW women's outdoor group with 35,000 members and it's insane how many women buy the same 2.5 layer budget rain jacket from 4 different brands and are confused and frustrated when they all fail on soggy days out here. REI had an insanely in-depth rainwear guide that really helped me navigate the options, but it was way too long and way too in depth for most customers to digest. They replaced it with a higher level summary, but it skips over the nuances between membrane options which are a huge component to purchase satisfaction. I also dug into a lot of the differences between nylon & polyester from a performance and sustainability standpoint to make my decision.

    I really enjoyed what I learned and the shopping process and thought it would be cool to get into the gear industry. It worked out with perfect timing that the company where I work started a private label division around the same time, and apparently the raincoat buying process is enough to make you a pretty competitive candidate. It's been wild to get in on the ground floor before we've had support staff built up - I've worn a lot of different hats and worked on a lot of different product categories. The original strategy was also to try a ton of different concepts and pricepoints and sourcing models, so it's been a really neat introduction to the industry.

    Long term, I'd love to jump over to the gear side and do product management for outerwear, building product to fit customer personas and making it stupid easy for customers to find the right gear for them. So these conversations that I have here or within my women's group are really beneficial for me too, since I'm not working in the most technical categories at the moment and, with the exception of bras & swimwear, my customers' needs are a lot simpler. With every question here, I learn more about the competitive landscape & do research on the things I don't know, so everybody, keep'em coming :)
     
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  15. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    @Analisa

    Without expecting i found a good price for a Hard Shell Event, with the pockets and pitzips i like, can i really trust in Event? already knowing that i should wash it more often, what is good for me.

    The Shell has DV Alpine:

    100% Nylon 70D
    ePTFE
    100% Nylon Tricot

    30000mm
    25000gr/m2/24h
    RET 4m2PA/W

    Weight 508g


    What you think? ogsmile
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  16. Andy Mink

    Andy Mink I am a half fast skier. Moderator Pugski Ski Tester

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    Spending many days in duck blinds I learned that warmth, breathability, and waterproofness are usually independent of each other even in higher tier gear. You can stay very dry from the rain but get soaked from sweat, stay very warm until the rain soaks through whatever membrane-of-the-day is in the coat, or be cool until you're wet and cold.

    I'm looking forward to getting the perfect shell but, honestly, I don't know if anyone really makes it, at least at a price I can afford. BTW, I very much dislike Gortex in boots. Hotter than hell and they really don't breath like Gore would have you believe.
     
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  17. neonorchid

    neonorchid Out on the slopes Skier

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    Fortunately,
    FlyLow in a joint venture with @Guy in Shorts have developed a solution for you -
    unnamed.jpg
     
  18. neonorchid

    neonorchid Out on the slopes Skier

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    That video is dated Feb '19, the following GearJunky's TNF Futurelight preview/review dated April 4 '19, could be TNF heard you, this prototype has pit zips - summit-hayden-3-1-1200x900.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  19. pack21

    pack21 La vita è bella, non sprecarla. Skier

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    That's what i was talking about, it's unimaginable not have a model with pitzips or something new for force Cooling, for skiing the jackets must bem able to cool down quickly. Let's see what this new membrane is capable of, and wait for prices to cool too.

    At time i have just received my new EVENT shell by @Analisa recommendation, thanks @Analisa , this weekend i will try, at least i'm already sure it have good DWR.....eheheheh
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Primoz

    Primoz Making fresh tracks Skier

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    @pack21 let me know once you try how it works, as Zajo has some very reasonable pricing around here (Slovenia), but never really considered them before @Analisa wrote all that stuff about eVent :) Btw... this on your photo is Karakorum Neo? And as you have it, and I need something for ski touring where size matters, and my current Scott with Goretex Pro rolls a bit big and heavy, how small you can pack this one?
     

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