Getting faster, slowly.

[Bad Bob]

The weekend is coming and here is a really simple little idea to try with your turns. Have used this with pretty good results on a number of levels of skiers from wedge turns to groomer zoomers. It sounds kind of silly but just try it, if you don't like the results toss it out of your tool box.

The largest muscles in your body are the gladius maximus, your butt. Put it to work. Try it static first a couple of times to get the feel of it (close your eyes for best results, we all get distracted pretty easily) now take it skiing. The instructions are really tough; tighten the butt cheek of what will be the outside ski, left cheek for a right turn right cheek for a left turn. That's it.

Try it, you might like the different shape and feeling in the turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The weekend is coming and here is a really simple little idea to try with your turns. Have used this with pretty good results on a number of levels of skiers from wedge turns to groomer zoomers. It sounds kind of silly but just try it, if you don't like the results toss it out of your tool box.

The largest muscles in your body are the gladius maximus, your butt. Put it to work. Try it static first a couple of times to get the feel of it (close your eyes for best results, we all get distracted pretty easily) now take it skiing. The instructions are really tough; tighten the butt cheek of what will be the outside ski, left cheek for a right turn right cheek for a left turn. That's it.

Try it, you might like the different shape and feeling in the turn.

Building on that suggestion .... try sliding the old turn's uphill/inside backwards (along its edge) to start a turn. Slide left foot back for right turn. Do this while tensing up that glute. These two go together rather nicely.

 

[slowrider]

Best way to resolve a issue is to identify it and face it.
Farting around with participation trophies just eats up time and have one going around in circles.

View attachment 228517

You remind me of a Sarg I had in the 10th mt. Do it till you get it right.

 

[cantunamunch]

Mea Culpa here. The OP is an acquaintance.

Ah so.

View attachment 228517

Meh. Bolingbroke says it better in Richard II :

"Now no way can I stray; Save back to England, all the world's my way. "

 

[justplanesteve]

You remind me of a Sarg I had in the 10th mt. Do it till you get it right.

In billiards, it's do it until you can't do it wrong.
But skiing is a bit more flexible.

 

[justplanesteve]

There are many ways to get down a slope, especially a wide open groomer. The skiers i always wanted to emulate are the ones who made it look like an effortless, serendipitous, exploratory adventure. Maybe a bit like a bee going from flower to flower on a drowsy day.
That might not float everyone's boat, as long as what you are doing is fun the whole day.

Among quotes on this list- https://montanadiscovered.com/skiing-quotes/ I like the following:

“Life is like skiing. Just like skiing, the goal is not to get to the bottom of the hill. It’s to have a bunch of good runs before the sun sets.” – Seth Godin

“When hell freezes over, I’ll ski there too.” – Unknown

Also:
"Many people ski like they can't wait to get it over with so they can sit down and ride on the chairlift" - me.

Sometimes commented to adult beginners watching with some trepidation as people slam down the slope below the lift, or feeling a need to apologize for being "slow".

smt

 

[JamesB]

Tough love: You need some up-to-date mental models who demonstrate solid modern technique, using the ski's design to turn.

Helpful! And I'm open to criticism here - Like I said, I felt like my skiing looked like it was from the 80s, and some of the comments on this thread are helping me clarify *why*.

 

[JamesB]

@JamesB, I see you are a new member. Welcome to SkiTalk. You have come to a good place to talk about ski technique.

You are skiing a line that goes straight down the hill, your skis stay in a very narrow corridor, and you are keeping your torso facing downhill as the skis point right-left. Skiing that line well is an advanced skill.

That line can be skied in different ways.
As @KingGrump said, you are making windshield wiper turns. That's one way to ski that line, but not a good way.

Watch your video full screen and set the speed as low as it will go. Look at the skis only.
Notice how far the tips travel left-right. Not far. They stay pretty much lined up with your head.
Notice how far the tails travel left-right. Much farther. Both tails travel out beyond your body.
The tips of the skis are the pivot point for the rotation your skis are making.

This is why these turns qualify as "windshield wiper" turns.

Skiing this way is commonly called tail-pushing. Tail-pushing is a dead end path leading to low levels of control when the terrain and conditions are challenging. Because the tails are pushed out and are rotated while flat to a late edge, the whole top half of the turn has little or no edge engagement.

The top half of the turn is something you will want to use to advantage in your turns in general. You'll need to know how to engage the skis before they get to the fall line. Using the top half of the turn is an important factor in advanced skiing. The habit of pushing and rotating a flat tail can make learning to get early tip-to-tail engagement all that much harder.

Work hard now to replace tail-pushing with another movement pattern, and strive to keep tail-pushing out of all your turns.

There are other movement patterns you can explore.
Maybe other instructors will suggest them here.
You could start a thread focused on what to do instead of tail-pushing in the ski school forum. This is the video and photography sub-forum, which is an odd place for this kind of discussion.

Lessons with a high level instructor would be the best way to purge and replace tail-pushing.

This was *REALLY* helpful. Went out last night and - while I didn't do the full-screen suggestion you gave me, I did play around with moving my tips more (or at least - making the skis less wiper-y) and ... You know those 3D magic-eye things, where you stare at it for a while and then you're like "wait....hang on....I...OH, IT'S A HORSE"? I felt like I was like 75% of the way to seeing the horse. Like "something is there and it's close to clicking but I am not sure if I'm looking at the right place". Need to find some time with an instructor and decent snow to see if I can make those connections.

 

[JamesB]

Mea Culpa here. The OP is an acquaintance. I sent him to SkiTalk to get advice about skis for his wife. (Separate thread.)

Along the way he posted the video above in the Video Stoke forum. He never asked for coaching or advice. I am the one who jumped in with a "before you get too excited there..." downer. That started the avalanche of movement analysis. So. Mea Culpa, @JamesB .

All good, Tony! And this was originally intended as a "this felt like it looked good" post, but the critique is welcomed. Nobody here is saying "you're doing it wrong", everyone is saying "hey, here are some thoughts about how you could improve". And that's appreciated!

 

[JamesB]

There are many ways to get down a slope, especially a wide open groomer. The skiers i always wanted to emulate are the ones who made it look like an effortless, serendipitous, exploratory adventure. Maybe a bit like a bee going from flower to flower on a drowsy day.
That might not float everyone's boat, as long as what you are doing is fun the whole day.

Among quotes on this list- https://montanadiscovered.com/skiing-quotes/ I like the following:

“Life is like skiing. Just like skiing, the goal is not to get to the bottom of the hill. It’s to have a bunch of good runs before the sun sets.” – Seth Godin

“When hell freezes over, I’ll ski there too.” – Unknown

Also:
"Many people ski like they can't wait to get it over with so they can sit down and ride on the chairlift" - me.

Sometimes commented to adult beginners watching with some trepidation as people slam down the slope below the lift, or feeling a need to apologize for being "slow".

smt

After looking at the video again and reading the comments, I drew this; tell me if I'm on the right track.
Purple: A good beginner line. Slow turns that cross the fall line at 90 degrees (or close to it.
Green: What I want to do. Those large-radius turns that look absolutely effortless,
Blue: What I'm actually doing. My tips aren't moving much, but my tails are drifting out like I'm a teenager in a Mustang on a wet road.

 

[JamesB]

“When hell freezes over, I’ll ski there too.” – Unknown

Sounds like something Candide Thovex would say?

 

[Tony S]

After looking at the video again and reading the comments, I drew this; tell me if I'm on the right track.
Purple: A good beginner line. Slow turns that cross the fall line at 90 degrees (or close to it.
Green: What I want to do. Those large-radius turns that look absolutely effortless,
Blue: What I'm actually doing. My tips aren't moving much, but my tails are drifting out like I'm a teenager in a Mustang on a wet road.
View attachment 228629

What most of us hope to do is to build a "tool box" of turns and tactics that will serve us well as our ski horizons expand. That means terrain, snow conditions, and weather; but also just mood or ambition level at any given moment.

There is a place for all of those turns. Don't think of them as "beginner, intermediate, and expert." The green line you aspire to is great on a blue groomer at Pleasant Mountain. But consider the appended photo taken yesterday afternoon here in Tahoe by @SKI-3PO . You are not going to want to employ your GS turns in that environment. Make sense?

The "blue" turn is actually the one that has the most utility. You'll do those more than the other kind by far. But HOW you make them is where all the substance is. And the way you are making them in the video is not going to work in that chute at Alpine Meadows.

 

[François Pugh]

This was *REALLY* helpful. Went out last night and - while I didn't do the full-screen suggestion you gave me, I did play around with moving my tips more (or at least - making the skis less wiper-y) and ... You know those 3D magic-eye things, where you stare at it for a while and then you're like "wait....hang on....I...OH, IT'S A HORSE"? I felt like I was like 75% of the way to seeing the horse. Like "something is there and it's close to clicking but I am not sure if I'm looking at the right place". Need to find some time with an instructor and decent snow to see if I can make those connections.

Good. Next step: concentrate on tipping those skis and add in some pulling back of them to make the edges bight, and watch those tips move themselves back and forth. Don't watch too much; look where you're going!

 

[JamesB]

What most of us hope to do is to build a "tool box" of turns and tactics that will serve us well as our ski horizons expand. That means terrain, snow conditions, and weather; but also just mood or ambition level at any given moment.

There is a place for all of those turns. Don't think of them as "beginner, intermediate, and expert." The green line you aspire to is great on a blue groomer at Pleasant Mountain. But consider the appended photo taken yesterday afternoon here in Tahoe by @SKI-3PO . You are not going to want to employ your GS turns in that environment. Make sense?

The "blue" turn is actually the one that has the most utility. You'll do those more than the other kind by far. But HOW you make them is where all the substance is. And the way you are making them in the video is not going to work in that chute at Alpine Meadows.

View attachment 228631

This is really helpful!
Right now my biggest challenge is just committing to "I'm going to set up a lesson on X day". Because my "ski plan" is usually "It's Saturday afternoon, I don't have anything planned tomorrow, I think I'll go up to Pleasant!" ...and they have a "minimum 24 hours" policy for lessons.

 

[LiquidFeet]

What most of us hope to do is to build a "tool box" of turns and tactics that will serve us well as our ski horizons expand. That means terrain, snow conditions, and weather; but also just mood or ambition level at any given moment.
You'll do those more than the other kind by far. But HOW you make them is where all the substance is. And the way you are making them in the video is not going to work in that chute at Alpine Meadows.

I think I'll go up to Pleasant!" ...and they have a "minimum 24 hours" policy for lessons.

When you book that lesson, find the ski school phone number and call. Skip the online registration. Ask to talk to the ski school director and explain you want a lesson with a Level III instructor with many years experience. Your goal in the lesson will be to learn to start your turns properly so you can make "short radius turns down the fall line." Let this SSD know that you are currently making windshield wiper turns. That's probably all you need to say to get the lesson on the right track right away.

Have fun learning new stuff and say hi to Tony for me.

 

[justplanesteve]

Sounds like something Candide Thovex would say?

Strictly aspirational in that case. At my age.
If one ends up in a situation, though, might as well make the most of it.

After looking at the video again and reading the comments, I drew this; tell me if I'm on the right track.

Any of the lines you drew are fine.
Are you having fun, and are you learning anything if you want to?
A wide groomer is sometimes tough to want to "explore" but my interest would not be so regular a pattern as any you drew.
Unless you maybe did funnel/hourglasses and lane changes. (being aware of other traffic on the hill, of course).

With that in mind, for a "regular" pattern, i'd rather see the purple, with a bit smoother/rounder than drawn. When that feels natural (completing turns by bending & riding a modern ski to do the work for you, adding speed as you desire), then maybe play around with gorilla turn railroad tracks.
Then you can choose to use turns to accelerate, or to slow down as preferred.
That will keep you busy on that type terrain for a bit.

Realistically, though, there are a whole bunch of useful drills to get to that point, that many of us practice every day.
Side-slipping both directions with and without edge sets. 1,000 steps. Falling leaves both directions. Garlands. Stork turns and javelin turns - work up gradually.

My point in the post you quoted is that speed is not the necessary goal of skiing, unless you are a racer on a racecourse.
Fun is. And control. Because having enough control to bend it & play at speed, is fun; but few of us will ever master complete control for more than instants at a time.

I think the best advice so far is ask for an L3 and take a couple hours to start.
1 hr is probably too short for an intro.
Some people like longer lessons.
Being a slow absorber, i learn better with 2 hr lessons and actual dedicated practice between.

Since i mostly work with lower level students than you, but often adults, i sometimes tell them that part of my job is to bore them.
People learn faster when they want to take the next step. Given your skiing, and this is intended in a good way, you may well be one of the guys that can drink from a fire hose and barely spill a drop, but don't set yourself up for that until you are sure. That is another thing that working with an instructor will help coach/inform.

Best of luck - your enthusiasm is a great reward in itself, including to those around you.

smt

 

[slowrider]

Sounds like something Candide Thovex would say?

This saying appears to have originated around the 1910s and first appeared in print in 1919. Someone added the ski part at some point.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Seems like a good start. Was that icy or grippy? Find something that resonates with you, maybe let the turn complete, now and then at least. Quick turns are fun too I did a bunch today.

 

[JamesB]

Since i mostly work with lower level students than you, but often adults, i sometimes tell them that part of my job is to bore them.
People learn faster when they want to take the next step. Given your skiing, and this is intended in a good way, you may well be one of the guys that can drink from a fire hose and barely spill a drop, but don't set yourself up for that until you are sure. That is another thing that working with an instructor will help coach/inform.
smt

Thank you! I am ... odd when it comes to coaching. With most things (especially those that I'm not familiar with), the cues that coaches use make absolutely no sense to me. Crossfit coach: "Corkscrew your feet when you squat!" Yoga instructor: "Now lift through your hips" or "Pull your navel towards your spine" and I just smile and nod. Skiing and mountain biking - maybe because I've done both for a while - the cues make almost immediate sense to me. Like "Oh. Of course. Shifting my weight to the...yep. Got it."

Woke up to a torrential downpour this morning, though - not sure how much longer the season will last.