Foot pullback drills?

[Noodler]

Shortening the inside leg will not work to maintain fore aft balance without pulling the foot back

I agree. I don't think most folks would automatically pull the foot back as they shorten their leg. They'll just pull their knee up. That's why I like to describe the retraction (shortening) as a leg curl powered by the hamstring.

 

[James]

I would agree. The tendency is for the inside foot to drift forward. Many people actually ski by inside shuffle forward. It’s kind of popular now with the younger park focused, out for a trail ski.
Keeping it back will also dorsiflex it. You will feel tension in the (inside ski) ankle which seems very weird until it’s natural.

 

[JESinstr]

So you guys are saying that the preferred way of creating tension in the ankle is by using your leg muscles to pull your foot back? Proper dorsiflexion tension is a function of the ankle. That said, there are a number of ways to skin the cat but which is the most efficient way is the question and the point of my post. I'm in Ron Kipps camp on this.

 

[James]

So you guys are saying that the preferred way of creating tension in the ankle is by using your leg muscles to pull your foot back?

Be specific what you’re talking about.
Inside ski- You can lift the foot in the boot of the inside ski, i.e. dorsiflex, with that foot way out in front of you. That accomplishes nothing.

What controls (rate, amount)the dorsiflexing while weighted, are the calf muscles in eccentric contraction. The plantarflexors. Not the dorsiflexing muscles on the front of the shin. TA, etc.
You’re also not moving the whole body weight forward, pivoting in the ankle, by the dorsiflexors. That’s absurd. They’re too small with little mechanical advantage. That’s going to take the large leg muscles, hamstring etc. Not ”gravity”.

Whether one uses foot dorsiflexing as a cue is another matter.

 

[JESinstr]

Be specific what you’re talking about.

Whether one uses foot dorsiflexing as a cue is another matter.

To quote the OP
"I've re-discovered that the foot pullback move is very effective in maintaining fore-aft balance especially at turn initiation"

 

[Rod9301]

To quote the OP
"I've re-discovered that the foot pullback move is very effective in maintaining fore-aft balance especially at turn initiation"

Actually, you want to forcefully pull the inside ski back throughout the turn. This way it will be below you at the start at the next turn, instead of being ahead, which means you will be in back seat at the start

 

[JESinstr]

Actually, you want to forcefully pull the inside ski back throughout the turn. This way it will be below you at the start at the next turn, instead of being ahead, which means you will be in back seat at the start

There is no disagreement here. I'm just saying my stance and relationship with the center of shape takes care of that. If someone has to consciously and forcefully pull their inside foot back, then there must be other issues at play like how did the foot get out front in the first place. And again, I don't mind it as a training aid of cue to fix improper balance.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Actually, you want to forcefully pull the inside ski back throughout the turn. This way it will be below you at the start at the next turn, instead of being ahead, which means you will be in back seat at the start

Would you agree that one can take this too far?

I've recently gotten coaching that I may be taking it too far. A little less pullback gave me a feeling of more glisse and less grind.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

So back to the OP. I've been playing with a drillI'm calling the Irish drill as it's based on a description of a video from the Irish Demo team that I have not been able to find. My friend told me that when the Irish team ski on the outside ski, they are lifting the inside ski with the tip high in the air then leveling and finally nose down as they go through the turn. So we started playing with it, and I found that if I lift the soon to be inside ski before edge change (i.e. transfer balance to inside ski little toe edge and lift outside ski just before transition) it gives a feeling that my be what you are after. crappy description, I know. I think the key to any of these drills about where you carry the ski is how you carry it there. If I drop the tip of the lifted ski just by bending the knee of that leg, it doesn't really do anything. If I drop the ski tip down by action of the stance leg ankle I am really doing something. In the Irish drill, I am working that ankle all the way through the turn. YMMV.

 

[James]

If someone has to consciously and forcefully pull their inside foot back, then there must be other issues at play like how did the foot get out front in the first place.

Yes. They’re balanced on the outside ski. A good thing.
Easier to deal with pulling the light inside foot back then an overly weighted one and a light outside.

 

[Rod9301]

Would you agree that one can take this too far?

I've recently gotten coaching that I may be taking it too far. A little less pullback gave me a feeling of more glisse and less grind.

I don't think so, the more force you apply, when you're lightening in transition, the more that ski will pull back and you will be balanced or forward.

 

[Prosper]

Actually, you want to forcefully pull the inside ski back throughout the turn. This way it will be below you at the start at the next turn, instead of being ahead, which means you will be in back seat at the start

CSIA's JFB workshop @ IS Levi as filmed by TB

Some interesting thoughts on inside leg and timing.

www.skitalk.com

While the pendulum movements are high level skiing and beyond my skill level, if done correctly, doesn't it lead to more efficient and well balanced skiing?

 

[Rod9301]

CSIA's JFB workshop @ IS Levi as filmed by TB

Some interesting thoughts on inside leg and timing.

www.skitalk.com

While the pendulum movements are high level skiing and beyond my skill level, if done correctly, doesn't it lead to more efficient and well balanced skiing?

What are the pendulum movements?

 

[geepers]

What are the pendulum movements?

Described in JFB's vid in the Op of that thread.

 

[Noodler]

So back to the OP. I've been playing with a drillI'm calling the Irish drill as it's based on a description of a video from the Irish Demo team that I have not been able to find. My friend told me that when the Irish team ski on the outside ski, they are lifting the inside ski with the tip high in the air then leveling and finally nose down as they go through the turn. So we started playing with it, and I found that if I lift the soon to be inside ski before edge change (i.e. transfer balance to inside ski little toe edge and lift outside ski just before transition) it gives a feeling that my be what you are after. crappy description, I know. I think the key to any of these drills about where you carry the ski is how you carry it there. If I drop the tip of the lifted ski just by bending the knee of that leg, it doesn't really do anything. If I drop the ski tip down by action of the stance leg ankle I am really doing something. In the Irish drill, I am working that ankle all the way through the turn. YMMV.

This is basically how I ski (aside from the drill). On 2D snow, I'm always using a one-footed release (retraction of the old stance ski), with the transfer of balance to the old inside ski LTE. The old stance ski, now retracted, can be used to "drive" the initiation of the new turn in the transition. This means it is tipped into the new turn and retracted further with the new stance ski following along.

The "power" and the balance you gain by the early transferring of weight (I hate using that term) from the BTE of the old stance ski to the LTE of the old inside ski, creates what I would call "surefooted-ness" for the new stance ski as you tip the skis through transition into the new turn. It sets up your balance on the new outside stance ski early. This is kind of the "secret" to being able to get early carving in the high-C portion of the turn. The new stance ski is already on the new BTE after tipping through transition, with all of your balance "focused" on it (note I didn't say pressure or weight). This requires the upper body movements to support what you're doing with your feet, so that means you also need a solid understanding of how to use counter (CA/CB).

 

[JESinstr]

So back to the OP. I've been playing with a drillI'm calling the Irish drill as it's based on a description of a video from the Irish Demo team that I have not been able to find. My friend told me that when the Irish team ski on the outside ski, they are lifting the inside ski with the tip high in the air then leveling and finally nose down as they go through the turn. So we started playing with it, and I found that if I lift the soon to be inside ski before edge change (i.e. transfer balance to inside ski little toe edge and lift outside ski just before transition) it gives a feeling that my be what you are after. crappy description, I know. I think the key to any of these drills about where you carry the ski is how you carry it there. If I drop the tip of the lifted ski just by bending the knee of that leg, it doesn't really do anything. If I drop the ski tip down by action of the stance leg ankle I am really doing something. In the Irish drill, I am working that ankle all the way through the turn. YMMV.

You mean this?

 

[JESinstr]

I think the key to any of these drills about where you carry the ski is how you carry it there.

Excellent.

I'll just throw in another example for anothr type of transition.

 

[Jjmd]

Working on both tip up, level, and tip down when executing this drill enhances the benefits and the more you do it three ways, the more subtle feedback you get.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Excellent.

I'll just throw in another example for anothr type of transition.

Yeah, this but ski is tip high when it leav s the snow and then goes to tail high as it comes back down. Stance leg ankle controls that.

 

[DavidSkis]

Actually, you want to forcefully pull the inside ski back throughout the turn. This way it will be below you at the start at the next turn, instead of being ahead, which means you will be in back seat at the start

Actually, I don't want to do this. Any forceful movement is inherently disruptive, and when skiing on ice (which is our condition 75% of the time in these parts) I want to minimize disruption between ski and ice...

Instead I want to keep my outside foot moving forward through the middle of the turn onward to overcome the friction on snow.