Fluoro hoarders-you're not concerned about the health risks of fluoro wax?

[MikeHunt]

I've seen quite a few posters happy and gloating they have hoarded the fast wax before it was pulled and banned from the market.

You don't have concerns about the negative health effects of fluoro? Why?

 

[MikeHunt]

On a related note, is Norway F'd? They used that sheeeee for years and possibly decades and dumped that sheeeee in their environment.

Is this much ado about nothing or are they F'd?

 

[Tom K.]

Is this much ado about nothing or are they F'd?

In the big picture, yes, much ado about nothing.

Not to say the stuff should keep being used, not at all. It's good to learn, and move forward.

 

[cantunamunch]

You don't have concerns about the negative health effects of fluoro? Why?

They're forever chemicals. They are stable. (Or as stable as any molecule we know of gets).

I'm not going to pyrolyze them by smoking around them because I know better. I'm not going to rotobrush the aerosol into my lungs because I know better.

The method of application is relatively innocuous.

Now, in a completely different thread I asked about waterproofers that would work for a combination Nubuck/velour/membrane boot. I don't even begin to dare to buy the highly rated products in the category. Because they are *immediately* converted to aerosol, because if they work at all they have higher fluoro per volume than any wax ever, because they also need a carrier to drive it into pores that will also be a penetrant past things like skin.

One of these cans is more suspect to my mind than $1000 of HF wax in bar form.

 

[cantunamunch]

On a related note, is Norway F'd? They used that sheeeee for years and possibly decades and dumped that sheeeee in their environment.

Is this much ado about nothing or are they F'd?

@scott43 posted a thread about Austria, that referenced a really well written study here:

PFAs in Austria

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/25/skiers-leaving-forever-chemicals-on-pistes-study-finds

www.skitalk.com

The study is actually here, ignore the article, it contributes nothing.

Per and polyfluoroalkylated substances (PFAS) target and EOF analyses in ski wax, snowmelts, and soil from skiing areas

Per and polyfluoroalkylated substances (PFAS) are common additives in ski waxes for their water repellent characteristic. Abrasion of ski wax leaves PFAS on the snow surface, however, little is known about the distribution and concentration of PFAS in snow and soil due to skiing. In this study...

pubs.rsc.org

My thoughts this week are exactly the same as they were in that thread. I think non-racer Europeans still have access to high fluoros from local ski shops, but North Americans don't because the danger of getting caught would be too great.

 

[Johnny V.]

I've got a block of the Swix Cera that was given to me a few years ago. I use it for our beer league races (no TD or testing ). It may help on our flat starts. I was laughing to myself at our last race thinking I probably won't use it up before I quit racing or go to the big ski resort in the sky................

 

[cantunamunch]

I've got a block of the Swix Cera that was given to me a few years ago. I use it for our beer league races (no TD or testing ). It may help on our flat starts. I was laughing to myself at our last race thinking I probably won't use it up before I quit racing or go to the big ski resort in the sky................

My stash from the 90s is now down to fingernail-thin parings stuck onto other waxes. But you can see those parings from across the room because they are in colours never equaled again since.

 

[snwbrdr]

Rubber dust from your tires, made from High Aromatic oils is more dangerous than Fluoro waxes.

 

[Primoz]

I've seen quite a few posters happy and gloating they have hoarded the fast wax before it was pulled and banned from the market.
You don't have concerns about the negative health effects of fluoro? Why?

Health effects? Nah there's none Swix has been claiming for last 20+ years, their HF waxes are healthier as fresh fruits and salad. They had whole bunch of researches proving that there's absolutely no impact on health proving this with whole bunch of blood, urine and whole bunch of other tests from plenty of their (and teams) World cup servicemen... until few years ago they changed their mantra completely and HF waxes became worse thing on planet... ever! Now HF waxes will destroy the world and we should dispose them together with nuclear waste if not even more carefully, as otherwise it will kill us all by just looking at package. Maybe this sudden change has something little to do with all the money benefits they got from government, but I wouldn't know that
But on serious side... I have been one of first on xc skiing World cup that started to use proper gas mask when waxing fluoro stuff (back in 90s ), and I keep this practice even today, when waxing only my own skis. Is it necessary? I don't know, but back in my days, I have seen few guys faint when walking into ski room full of fluoro fumes with cigarette in their mouth. Sure cigarette on fire or iron at 200c max is not same thing, but keeping proper mask on is not really all that huge deal (looking back in last few years when people had huge issues with "paper napkins" infront of their face, I guess I'm wrong, and it is big deal), and changing 15-20eur filters once or twice a season is not all that expensive either. So personally I use mask when using fluoro.
Another question is, do we need fluoros? 99% of us don't. Sure they are faster, and yes they are still faster then anything that's out nowadays and carries fluoro-free label. Do we really need that extra speed? Not really, but at least for xc, I like faster skis, and on xc it actually shows. With being fluoro disposal channel for all my friends still in World cup, who needed to ditch their fluoro stock before this season, I have almost unlimited supply of fluoro waxes, so I will keep using them for my xc skiing. It's much nicer when skis glide better.
Environment impact... I honestly think fluoro waxes are smallest issue in today's world when it comes to environment damage, so I really don't bother about that. Sure selfish but as long as I will drive 50km (one way) to get to my prefered xc track (done daily with several 300+hp diesel machines), I think I have bigger environment issue that those few grams of HF wax on my skis.

 

[snwbrdr]

Health effects? Nah there's none Swix has been claiming for last 20+ years, their HF waxes are healthier as fresh fruits and salad. They had whole bunch of researches proving that there's absolutely no impact on health proving this with whole bunch of blood, urine and whole bunch of other tests from plenty of their (and teams) World cup servicemen... until few years ago they changed their mantra completely and HF waxes became worse thing on planet... ever! Now HF waxes will destroy the world and we should dispose them together with nuclear waste if not even more carefully, as otherwise it will kill us all by just looking at package. Maybe this sudden change has something little to do with all the money benefits they got from government, but I wouldn't know that
But on serious side... I have been one of first on xc skiing World cup that started to use proper gas mask when waxing fluoro stuff (back in 90s ), and I keep this practice even today, when waxing only my own skis. Is it necessary? I don't know, but back in my days, I have seen few guys faint when walking into ski room full of fluoro fumes with cigarette in their mouth. Sure cigarette on fire or iron at 200c max is not same thing, but keeping proper mask on is not really all that huge deal (looking back in last few years when people had huge issues with "paper napkins" infront of their face, I guess I'm wrong, and it is big deal), and changing 15-20eur filters once or twice a season is not all that expensive either. So personally I use mask when using fluoro.
Another question is, do we need fluoros? 99% of us don't. Sure they are faster, and yes they are still faster then anything that's out nowadays and carries fluoro-free label. Do we really need that extra speed? Not really, but at least for xc, I like faster skis, and on xc it actually shows. With being fluoro disposal channel for all my friends still in World cup, who needed to ditch their fluoro stock before this season, I have almost unlimited supply of fluoro waxes, so I will keep using them for my xc skiing. It's much nicer when skis glide better.
Environment impact... I honestly think fluoro waxes are smallest issue in today's world when it comes to environment damage, so I really don't bother about that. Sure selfish but as long as I will drive 50km (one way) to get to my prefered xc track (done daily with several 300+hp diesel machines), I think I have bigger environment issue that those few grams of HF wax on my skis.

Speed = good. Especially on traverses, less work to get through them.

 

[Lilledonmarco]

On a related note, is Norway F'd? They used that sheeeee for years and possibly decades and dumped that sheeeee in their environment.

Is this much ado about nothing or are they F'd?

SWIX sold all of their CF, and HF supplies on their website in a very quiet weekend sale. I was extremely lucky and managed to buy around 150lbs of it for less than 50 USD

 

[chilehed]

You don't have concerns about the negative health effects of fluoro?

There aren't any unless you're careless in using it. Iron ~10F lower than label, good ventilation, scrape and brush outdoors, don't inhale it.

SWIX sold all of their CF, and HF supplies on their website in a very quiet weekend sale. I was extremely lucky and managed to buy around 150lbs of it for less than 50 USD

I hate you.

At the rate I'm using mine, 150 lbs would last until my grandchildred die.

 

[crgildart]

Cue whataboutism like Teflon, Tupperware, etc in 3...2.....1......

 

[snwbrdr]

SWIX sold all of their CF, and HF supplies on their website in a very quiet weekend sale. I was extremely lucky and managed to buy around 150lbs of it for less than 50 USD

I got a small load of Racewax FluoroMax all-temp, as I emailed them a while back, asking why the FluoroMax was no longer on their website.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Turns out a lot of us had been drinking small quantities in the tapwater our whole lives.

Makes me wonder if it was a road salt additive. Otherwise how could it be so common?

Maybe a little confirmation bias but here it is.

Slippery winter roads likely in NL: Road salt contains harmful chemicals

This winter, the Netherlands may not be able to keep the roads from icing over, as a preliminary investigation found high levels PFAS in the rock salt suppl...

www.iamexpat.nl

 

[S.H.]

Turns out a lot of us had been drinking small quantities in the tapwater our whole lives.

Makes me wonder if it was a road salt additive. Otherwise how could it be so common?

Maybe a little confirmation bias but here it is.

Slippery winter roads likely in NL: Road salt contains harmful chemicals

This winter, the Netherlands may not be able to keep the roads from icing over, as a preliminary investigation found high levels PFAS in the rock salt suppl...

www.iamexpat.nl

PFAS are nearly ubiquitous in the environment (surface and groundwater) now and are distributed by aerial deposition and in rainwater. These compounds were used in the manufacture of almost anything that was supposed to be slippery, nonstick, or waterproof ... and their manufacture began pre-clean water act, so they were often just dumped in the environment. They're present now in AFFF, pesticides, etc. They're in everything and don't biodegrade.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

Lot of people saying it's not that bad in this thread. I'm no expert, and can't personally refute that. But to give the counter point, why even bother? For the recreational skier, you make it back to the lift 10s sooner than with normal wax? You glide an extra 20 ft on a traverse? Those examples might actually be generous. What's the point? No matter how careful you are, you absolutely will end up inhaling some amount of wax dust while brushing and scraping. Is that really going to cause problems for you? I don't know. But there's a reason the official recommendations is to wear a respirator when dealing with fluoro waxes. Why even deal with stuff that's nasty enough you should wear a respirator, when you're just a recreationalist looking at such tiny gains? Seems ridiculous to me.

And as an aside, those gains are suddenly not so tiny in a competitive setting. But it's obviously banned there, so you risk disqualification. Of course, your local beer league probably doesn't have a fluoro check, but... really?

 

[Primoz]

@CascadeConcrete for alpine I totally agree. It's not worth. Not because of health or any other risk, but simply as it's (or was) way too expensive. Xc is different thing... go 50km loop and you will see it's much more fun when skis are fast, then when they are not so fast

 

[snwbrdr]

Here's a SDS for Toko Fluoro wax

https://www.toko.ch/fileadmin/Dateiliste/Products/Downloads/Sicherheitsdatenblaetter/Wax_SDS_Deter._EN/02_Toko_Fluoro_Wax_EN.pdf

It's downright safe compared to using a base cleaner.

the overlay powders? That presents more of a risk, especially if you overheat it and get it smoking.

 

[SlideWright]

<SNIP> I have almost unlimited supply of fluoro waxes, so I will keep using them for my xc skiing. It's much nicer when skis glide better.
Environment impact... I honestly think fluoro waxes are smallest issue in today's world when it comes to environment damage, so I really don't bother about that. Sure selfish but as long as I will drive 50km (one way) to get to my prefered xc track (done daily with several 300+hp diesel machines), I think I have bigger environment issue that those few grams of HF wax on my ski

I'm thinking very similarly.

Skiing & snowboarding is not a green sport. I'd be curious to see where else the PFAS could be from AND rather than in a vacuum (and cherry picked as a low hanging fruit target), what other stuff is found relative to grooming, snowmaking, travel, fuels, parking lots, development, lodging, restaurants, equipment, outerwear, you named it, that are far more impactful relative to ski areas, resorts and the snowsports industry. I'd bet the amounts of other impacts would be vastly overshadowing.

There's no question fluoros are harmful, but self protection is easy and as someone who likes to turn smoother and glide fast, especially on endless traverses, and while xc skiing, LFs are sweet and add to the fun. With maybe, what?, 5-10 microns of wax left in the base after scraping and brushing @ 5-10% LF spread over upwards of 30-50 miles/30-40k of vertical of skiing per waxing, is it even measurable?

I got a small load of Racewax FluoroMax all-temp, as I emailed them a while back, asking why the FluoroMax was no longer on their website.

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I'll see yours & raise you with some of what I just 'acquired' from a supplier. It was included as part of a 415 lb wax delivery (mostly paraffin). Now, I'm not sure what to do with the LF given the current attitudes and restrictions. Any suggestions appreciated.