Flex "index"... 15 years ago and now. Same?

[vindibona1]

I've been in the same Salomon boots for over 15 years now. I have a light touch and don't pummel turns like I used to do as a less accomplished skier. I used to destroy boots in a season, but now am very light on the tongues, ski from the bottoms of my feet and the tongue/cuff mostly acts as shock absorption and stability more than as leverage. The Salomon XWave 8.0's are rated at 90 flex, but to me feel stiffer. Back then 110 was super stiff and only pure race boots were stiffer yet. My boots liners are pretty well packed out and a new liner doesn't make sense.

I tried on a pair of Lange RX100's (100 flex). The fit was pretty good stock. And the 100 flex may have even been softer than my old Salomons. But this boot is listed for "strong intermediates to expert skiers". I have no idea how these boots are going to feel on the hill and while I don't like super stiff boots, I don't want boots that are too soft and will flex out the first time I hit a big bump.

What can you guys tell me about today's flex ratings, and perhaps specifically about where this Lange RX100 fits into the scheme of things? TIA

 

[Brian Finch]

I think they are generally softer at any given point, but the scale is unique from company to company.

start here :

Racers130-140
Experts 120-130
Advancing skiers 110-120
Cruisers 100-115
Newbies & Social skiers 90-100

 

[François Pugh]

Boot flex is a lot like vehicle suspension.
How fast are you skiing (slower than most, average, faster than most, Race speeds (GS, SG or DH speeds)?
How much do you weigh, 220+ lbs, 160-ish lbs, ~120 lbs (Loaded RAM 3500, half ton, large, medium small sedan, Mazda Miata)?
How hard do you turn ( under 1 g, 1 g, 2 gs or more)?
What terrain do you ski (off-road, potholes, smooth pavement)?

Also it is a bit of a matter of preference. Even though I no longer ski at insane speeds, and I lost 40 lbs, and am not pushing the performance envelope (due to health reasons), I still prefer my old stiff boots than my newer 100 Flex boots.

 

[vindibona1]

Boot flex is a lot like vehicle suspension.
How fast are you skiing (slower than most, average, faster than most, Race speeds (GS, SG or DH speeds)?
How much do you weigh, 220+ lbs, 160-ish lbs, ~120 lbs (Loaded RAM 3500, half ton, large, medium small sedan, Mazda Miata)?
How hard do you turn ( under 1 g, 1 g, 2 gs or more)?
What terrain do you ski (off-road, potholes, smooth pavement)?

Also it is a bit of a matter of preference. Even though I no longer ski at insane speeds, and I lost 40 lbs, and am not pushing the performance envelope (due to health reasons), I still prefer my old stiff boots than my newer 100 Flex boots.

The reason I am inquiring is because I want to gauge what I might buy vs what I have. My condition is somewhat unique and a bit of a conundrum...

I was in an accident many years ago where my left leg suffered major damage. My left ankle, I believe has severe calcification which restricts my dorsiflexion to about 90°, though I can extend relatively normally. However, my shin lost a lot of muscle, has a screw right in the middle where the tongue could hit and can be a bit tender. My shin does not like overly stiff boots, requires the right balance of stiffness, forward lean and ramp angle. Photo composite below.

I've learned to generate a LOT of leverage from my feet, so the tongue/cuff of the boot serves to create more stability than leverage, PLUS shock absorption, so that my ankle doesn't get cranked when I run into something hard. When that happens I get shock waves through my entire body, as if I got blasted with a lightning bolt (no joke). So I have to find that perfect blend of fit, flex and performance.

Weight: 175-180 lbs

How hard do I turn? While I teach a lot of lessons where not hard at all, when out free skiing, depending on the area, it can be fairly hard. My avatar illustrates about 75% how hard I can turn when cruising on groomed.

Terrain? For the most part I'm here in the midwest, so mostly cruising hardpack. As I get called on to teach upper levels I sometimes have to do bump lessons. When I've gone out of the area, I've most often skied Snowbird UT, thought I've skied at Jackson, Squaw Valley, Sun Valley and Vail, pretty much everything in Summit County. One trip to New Hampshire. Age is beginning to become a factor so I don't push as hard as I used to, but in good conditions can still crank turns pretty well. I did a pretty good job of keeping up with the teenagers yesterday .

I hope I painted a broader picture of my situation. Any help is appreciated. I've grown to hate buying boots... which largely explains why I've nursed my current pair for 16 seasons... So replacing them isn't a matter of if, but when- and with what.

TIA

 

[Ken_R]

I've been in the same Salomon boots for over 15 years now. I have a light touch and don't pummel turns like I used to do as a less accomplished skier. I used to destroy boots in a season, but now am very light on the tongues, ski from the bottoms of my feet and the tongue/cuff mostly acts as shock absorption and stability more than as leverage. The Salomon XWave 8.0's are rated at 90 flex, but to me feel stiffer. Back then 110 was super stiff and only pure race boots were stiffer yet. My boots liners are pretty well packed out and a new liner doesn't make sense.

I tried on a pair of Lange RX100's (100 flex). The fit was pretty good stock. And the 100 flex may have even been softer than my old Salomons. But this boot is listed for "strong intermediates to expert skiers". I have no idea how these boots are going to feel on the hill and while I don't like super stiff boots, I don't want boots that are too soft and will flex out the first time I hit a big bump.

What can you guys tell me about today's flex ratings, and perhaps specifically about where this Lange RX100 fits into the scheme of things? TIA

Try the RX130's. The fit should be identical to the RX100's, the liner quality will be much better and the flex will be a bit more supportive but still be nice and progressive and shock absorbing.

 

[Philpug]

Flex is not the same today as it is today. There is no standard in flexes, no independent lab that boot manufacturers send the boots out to be tested for flex. Try boots on, see how they flex for you. If you have to, buy the better boot, you will get a better built boot that very well can be softened as needed.

 

[vindibona1]

Try the RX130's. The fit should be identical to the RX100's, the liner quality will be much better and the flex will be a bit more supportive but still be nice and progressive and shock absorbing.

Flex is not the same today as it is today. There is no standard in flexes, no independent lab that boot manufacturers send the boots out to be tested for flex. Try boots on, see how they flex for you. If you have to, buy the better boot, you will get a better built boot that very well can be softened as needed.

Probably good advice. Yeah... better liners will help and probably make the boots last longer. I'll try to seek out some better Langes. The local shop I have a relationship with only had the RX100 in my size. Who knows how long. Before I got the Salomons, I think i went through a pair of boots every year. When Salmon first came out with their rear entry SX series, I first bought the gray one and destroyed it in half a season and then got the stiffer red ones- but they were too stiff. Here's a pic of me back in the day running gates with my second pair of Salomon boots, no shaped skis, no helmet (they weren't a thing then) and no goggles. Note the sweater... My daughter still wears it [I think the pole was bamboo, hence no clipping it on fun runs :0.]

 

[skipress]

Flex is not the same today as it is today. There is no standard in flexes, no independent lab that boot manufacturers send the boots out to be tested for flex. Try boots on, see how they flex for you. If you have to, buy the better boot, you will get a better built boot that very well can be softened as needed.

Yes, 100% right, really all that a flex number tells you is that a Brand X Model Y 130 is stiffer than a Brand X Model Y 120, it's a differentiator within a model line but not much more.

What we really perceive is pressure distribution and that's a function of hinge axis [and how closely it aligns with yours] and shin fit. I can jump into a Rossi/Lange ZC which has a notional flex index of circa 150. It's not the easiest thing to get on and off and it's a bit crushing, but to me it feels pleasantly flexible, put me in a 130 stock Doberman and it feels [to me] like concrete. I've no doubt others have the reverse experience.

I do have a vague recollection of a sort of pseudo 'standard' of the index being the force needed to move the cuff through an arc of x degrees being mooted [the number of blanks in that 'standard tells you how widely discussed it was]. Reality is more 'yup, that feels like a 130, oh that's stiffer and narrower, let's make than 'un a 140'

 

[vindibona1]

Yes, 100% right, really all that a flex number tells you is that a Brand X Model Y 130 is stiffer than a Brand X Model Y 120, it's a differentiator within a model line but not much more.

That seems to be the consensus and I'll just have to see for myself how they feel in the shop and pray they don't stiffen up that much in the cold. I remember many years back I had some yellow Langes. They were pretty good- until the temps dropped below 25°F and then it was like flexing block ice.

I got to ski three times in the past 10 days and I'm asking myself, are my current boots really that bad? But I know, that as soon as I say, "let's keep em another season" something will break and I'll be in the emergency buy mode. Because the season is so short here in the midwest the local dealers don't reorder once stock leaves the shop, so I've got to hunt around. I'm still thinking Daleboot, but may try to eek out the rest of the season in these Salomons and then do some early season skiing in Utah in the fall.

I'll expand my search to 120/130 flex range in hopes that the fit along the shin and cuff angle will be right to accommodate a stiffer flex. Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[skipress]

One thing with old boots is that you don't know that they're weakening 'til you wear something new and you think.... wow..my edges have been sharpened and my skis tuned. The day to day entropy is imperceptable until you put something new on.

 

[Andy Mink]

The day to day entropy is imperceptable until you put something new on.

Like shock absorbers on your car. You have no idea how bad they are until you get new ones.

The limited dorsiflexion would suggest a stiffer boot while the tenderness wants something softer. If the screw is causing tenderness on a point as opposed to a bigger area it might be possible to gut the tongue right around that point and still maintain the stiffness so what little flexion you have is translated into useful energy. Any chance of getting the screw removed or did that ship sail? The reason I ask is that my wife broke her leg right at the ankle and had a plate and screws that made it all but impossible to get into a boot. After several years of hemming and hawing about getting back into skiing she was able to have the hardware removed.

 

[Funkendrenchman]

I used to ski that X Wave. I now prefer around a 110 Salomon. 145lb 100+ day skier with a softer boot preference. If that X Wave fit you well, you probably should look at 98 last Salomons, Nordicas, or Atomics. Langes and Technicas do not jive with my Salomon foot.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I like stiff boots and won’t lie....(add background music here)

Seriously I do tend to go towards stiff boots, even when I was young and light (6’ and 125lbs). It really comes to, is the fit and stance right and can you flex them. The second thing is a boot that is too stiff can be softened with a little work, however, a boot that is too soft is next to impossible to make stiffer.
Third and most important thing is fit. This must be good, after that error on stiffer side.

I would say the only exception in stiffness is beginner boots. This are intended to be on the softer side. Softness is the auto-forgiveness of beginner input errors (same of beginner skis).

Finally a good skier in stiff boots can ski soft skis, but in soft boots can have a difficult time getting input into stiff skis.

 

[Tricia]

The Numbers Game: Boots, Part 2

Oh boy, these are some of the most “missed” numbers: mis-understood, mis-represented, and mis-referenced. We see flex ranges from 50 to 150 for adult boots. Why and how are these numbers set? You might as well try to figure out airline pricing models or the calculation of your credit score. I...

www.pugski.com

 

[Dakine]

Here is one consideration that is often overlooked.
All plastic boots are really high flex when the temperature is zero.
When it gets slushy, the flex drops a lot.
I have two pairs of B-Tech shells, one 90 and one 120.
When it is really cold I cannot tell the difference.
When it gets warm, I feel like I could telemark in the 90's.
Just when you need some stiffness to bust slush and crud the boots wimp out.
Because I tend to be a fair weather skier, I prefer a 120 flex so the boots have some stiffness when warm.
You can see racers packing snow around their boots to cool them in warm conditions to address this.

 

[cantunamunch]

That seems to be the consensus and I'll just have to see for myself how they feel in the shop and pray they don't stiffen up that much in the cold.

There is a class of boots that nominally fits within your flex range - those with lightweight shells and mouldable shells.

The mouldable shell may be an advantage in your case, and a few of the lightweight shell model lines have the least stiffening in the cold of any boots. So little that it's effectively zero in comparison to old school plastics.

But- and it's a big but in your case - the damping and the rebound are completely different from the plastics you are used to. That may be a plus or a minus, and it will be hard to tell in the store.

 

[vindibona1]

There is a class of boots that nominally fits within your flex range - those with lightweight shells and mouldable shells.

The mouldable shell may be an advantage in your case, and a few of the lightweight shell model lines have the least stiffening in the cold of any boots. So little that it's effectively zero in comparison to old school plastics.

But- and it's a big but in your case - the damping and the rebound are completely different from the plastics you are used to. That may be a plus or a minus, and it will be hard to tell in the store.

This is valuable information. As you say, it's hard to tell in the store. But it's important that the boot stiffness remains relatively constant in a wide temperature range. I think back to the days when I had a yellow Lange boot. It was like the proverbial "box of chocolates" depending on the temperature on a given day.