Does a Short BSL Affect Turn Initiation?

[AmyPJ]

Maybe a boot heater if that's what's necessary to have control + comfortable feet?

I had the same problem with my stock liners - my feet were numb even in 30-40 degree temps. No bueno.

I am considering that. Or Intuitions with the regular tongue. There is no way around the tongue issue with the Zipfits, unfortunately. And yes, it was 40 today and my toes were ice cubes. The liners were very snug over them so hopefully that'll pack a bit and give me a bit more space for them.

 

[SkiNurse]

Hmmm, I had a problem last season (for a couple of months) where I felt that I had to overflex my boot to be able to flex my ski, which was very uncomfortable. I felt like i was all over the place & was unable to initiate turns without a lot of effort and energy. I don't like wasting energy. My preferred feeling when initiating a turn, is there should be no separation between the boot & the ski.It should feel as one piece and initiation should be more of a tipping motion,than a flexing motion in the boot/ski. I have a pair of Langes, that are several season old, 100 flex. To the rescue was @Chris Geib . He started off by first putting shims under my boot toe and eventually have some shin/tongue(?) plates that are currently duct taped into my boots. This has helped to make my skiing back to what what I prefer and has saved from buying another pair of boots. I like these boots.

PS: I do have Intuition liner AND boot heaters.

 

[AmyPJ]

Hmmm, I had a problem last season (for a couple of months) where I felt that I had to overflex my boot to be able to flex my ski, which was very uncomfortable. I felt like i was all over the place & was unable to initiate turns without a lot of effort and energy. I don't like wasting energy. My preferred feeling when initiating a turn, is there should be no separation between the boot & the ski.It should feel as one piece and initiation should be more of a tipping motion,than a flexing motion in the boot/ski. I have a pair of Langes, that are several season old, 100 flex. To the rescue was @Chris Geib . He started off by first putting shims under my boot toe and eventually have some shin/tongue(?) plates that are currently duct taped into my boots. This has helped to make my skiing back to what what I prefer and has saved from buying another pair of boots. I like these boots.

PS: I do have Intuition liner AND boot heaters.

I think you were having the exact same issue I have been. Any idea why yours started?? I've tried the added material in the shin/tongue as well as toe lifts in the past. I am going to keep experimenting with the stock liner because that feeling you describe of no separation between the boot and ski, it should be one piece...is what's been missing. I FINALLY got that feeling with the stock liners and yes, way less energy expended! I was also able to actually just RELAX and flow a little vs. feeling like I had to be SO on top of my skis, which made me really tense.

Will ski them again tomorrow, hopefully. MIGHT spring for a much-needed lesson, depends on weather and snow conditions. Some fresh snow is coming in tonight

 

[SkiNurse]

I think you were having the exact same issue I have been. Any idea why yours started?? I've tried the added material in the shin/tongue as well as toe lifts in the past. I am going to keep experimenting with the stock liner because that feeling you describe of no separation between the boot and ski, it should be one piece...is what's been missing. I FINALLY got that feeling with the stock liners and yes, way less energy expended! I was also able to actually just RELAX and flow a little vs. feeling like I had to be SO on top of my skis, which made me really tense.

Will ski them again tomorrow, hopefully. MIGHT spring for a much-needed lesson, depends on weather and snow conditions. Some fresh snow is coming in tonight

Boots are old & needed to be stiffened up? Which is exactly what Chris did for me. I like the boots, they just were becoming "soft" after a extended period of time. Putting in the Intuition Liners did not do anything for the boot problem, but did make my freezing cold feet much warmer.

The added shin plates have been great & I should definitely get another season out of my boots.

 

[AmyPJ]

It's always good to get another season out of a favorite pair of boots. I have never been able to do that--hoping that changes with these current boots. Being able to stick with one fitter consistently who I can visit whenever I need is going to help a lot.

 

[AmyPJ]

Bumping this back up...I am beginning to believe there is a possible correlation with cuff/tongue height and ease of turn initiation. I never did 100% get along with my previous boots that have a notably shorter (as in almost 1cm) cuff than the previous pair. I will be getting out on a pair of Promachine 105W I just picked up for this season. The cuff is about 1cm taller than my previous boots.

 

[markojp]

Bumping this back up...I am beginning to believe there is a possible correlation with cuff/tongue height and ease of turn initiation. I never did 100% get along with my previous boots that have a notably shorter (as in almost 1cm) cuff than the previous pair. I will be getting out on a pair of Promachine 105W I just picked up for this season. The cuff is about 1cm taller than my previous boots.

There are quite a few variables involved, cuff height being one. Ankle/shin volume is also big, as is foward lean... Small BSL a la women's Head Raptor boots combined with a larger calf can cause issues if the upper shell isn't modified, etc..... I'm guessing your new boot simply fits more accurately through the instep/ankle/shin, but without eyes on, that's just a guess. Anyhow, great your finding a boot that's choosing you.

 

[cantunamunch]

Bumping this back up...I am beginning to believe there is a possible correlation with cuff/tongue height and ease of turn initiation. I never did 100% get along with my previous boots that have a notably shorter (as in almost 1cm) cuff than the previous pair. I will be getting out on a pair of Promachine 105W I just picked up for this season. The cuff is about 1cm taller than my previous boots.

You could always try to experiment.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/making-boots-taller.13785/#post-318477

 

[AmyPJ]

You could always try to experiment.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/making-boots-taller.13785/#post-318477

No need. Bought taller boots!

 

[cantunamunch]

No need. Bought taller boots!

Need? Do it for Science.

 

[Noodler]

(I'm doing it "for the science")...

Turn initiation? It's all about the delta... or more specifically, the net ramp angle and related forward lean.

I had an interesting experience this past Friday that I think provides some additional information and investigation for any skier interested in improving their skiing.

On Friday we had some fresh snow to play in so I decided to grab a pair of skis that I hadn't skied in quite some time; well before I did the fore/aft gas pedal testing last season. I was in my new Nordica GPX boots that currently had a 1.5mm shim installed on the toes. The skis have a 2.0mm delta.

I took my first 3 runs and was really not skiing great. I thought it was strange because I remembered liking the skis, but my legs were getting quickly tired and the skis just weren't hooking up well or holding a solid edge. They felt really "loose" and "slarvy" which is not what I like to get from a ski.

After those first 3 runs, the friend I had been skiing with decided to head home (he got a much earlier start than I did), so I hit the next lift alone and had a chance to reflect on what was going on with my skiing. I remembered that I had some additional toe shims in my pocket and decided that on the next run I would test an additional 3mm shim. After adding the shims, everything changed for my skiing and how the skis felt. I immediately felt my skiing was better balanced, turn initiation was solid and instantaneous, and I could feel the entire length of the ski edges grabbing and holding on the snow.

So here's where I think I can provide some new information for other skiers to consider when it comes to determining whether you should experiment with your fore/aft balance alignment. What I noticed when I was not aligned properly was:

1. I felt that I was plantar flexing very hard into the apex of the turn and through the finish (opening the ankle joint)
   
2. Plantar flexing was making the small muscles in my feet hurt quite a bit and my calf muscles were tiring out
3. My normal foot pullback movements were not engaging the tips for the new turn like I'm used to feeling

With the 3mm shims placed under my boot toes (on top of the AFD), I noticed the following changes:

1. I could now easily dorsiflex and keep my ankle joint more closed from the turn apex into the turn finish
2. My feet could "relax"; the muscles in the bottom of my feet stopped hurting and my calves weren't killing me (I felt like I could ski all day with much less effort required)
3. My foot pullback movements were incredibly efficient at getting the skis to easily engage at the top of the turn (as long as I got my feet below my hips I was able to achieve easy turn initiation with fantastic tip engagement)
4. I felt like I could keep my balance well centered over the skis and I had access to the entire length of the ski edges with simple fore/aft adjustments (foot pullback and dorsiflexion)

I really think the big "clue" as to whether you should raise your toes (gas pedal) is the presence of a strong need to plantar flex hard to keep the front of the skis in contact with the snow. There have been lots of posts about the static measurements that show how well aligned your fore/aft stance is (things like plumb bobbing from your kneecaps down to the boot toe, parallel shins to spine, etc.), but I've never seen much regarding what a skier might be feeling in their muscles and their movements when out of alignment. Now that I know what to lookout for, I think I'll know quickly when I'm out of fore/aft alignment (i.e. the delta is probably wrong).

I now have myself convinced that fore/aft alignment is more important to me than lateral alignment (canting). I can still ski fairly well when misaligned laterally (I don't need major amounts of canting), but if the fore/aft is wrong, I cannot even begin to ski at my full potential. If the skis feel loose and aren't holding an edge well, then I can't trust them enough to achieve high edge angles in high speed turns.

I have built 1mm, 2mm, and 3mm shims and ski with them in my pocket. I think these will really come in handy when demoing "foreign" skis with unknown deltas. Many times in the past, I've probably been attributing observations of ski performance that were purely due to a delta situation. I know that the skis on my feet on Friday were completely transformed by the addition of the shims. I'll be demoing skis again tomorrow and if I run into any skis that I'm not "connecting" with, I'm going to grab some of my shims and make the adjustment. I want to see how well this plays out with unknown equipment.

I could have posted this info in any number of the binding delta threads, but decided since this was the most current I would post here (so you won @AmyPJ. ).

 

[Noodler]

Forgot to note that my Nordica GPX boots now have 3mm shims installed permanently under the toes. I measured the net ramp with the new shims and I'm much closer to where my Raptor B2s live. Closer, but not quite a match yet, so I may need to add even more lift at the toes on the Nordicas.

 

[AmyPJ]

@Noodler, thanks for sharing that! Plantar flexing like that would definitely stress the calves, and I'd guess maybe arches, too.
What did you make the shims out of that you carry around?

 

[Noodler]

@Noodler, thanks for sharing that! Plantar flexing like that would definitely stress the calves, and I'd guess maybe arches, too.
What did you make the shims out of that you carry around?

I buy ABS plastic sheets (12"x12") off Amazon. They sell them in various thicknesses. I also have used HDPE, which theoretically would be safer (HDPE is much more slippery than ABS), but they tend to slip out and get lost.

 

[Noodler]

I should point out the obvious: that it is possible to go too far with the amount of toe lift for a gas pedal.

What I observe when the delta goes too far in raising the toe vs. the heel height is that it becomes harder to get the tip of the ski off the snow and you may feel that the edges at the tip are more prone to catch accidentally.

After the demos today, I definitely will not be adding more gas pedal to my Nordica boots. 3mm is more than enough to negate some of the more challenging setups and those demo bindings that are actually flat (or close to) are running up against being almost too much with a boot that has a gas pedal installed. The 3mm also works really well with my quiver.

 

[crgildart]

Does a Short BSL Affect Turn Initiation?

Well, moving the heel of a size 6 foot 3 inches to the right while pivoting on the middle or toe turns the foot or ski more degrees than pivoting a size 12 foot heel the same 3 inches. So it would seen that yes, there is a relationship between the pivot force rotation degrees and BSL. It's also why the DIN is different for different BSLs. How that translates to carving a modern ski would differ of course, but I would still guess that different distance between leg/heel and toe or mid arch dies affect initiation dynamics some.

Left is short BSL pivoted hell laterally right and right is long BSL pivoted heel right the same distance, left is more degrees of a turn for the same effort.

 

[AmyPJ]

View attachment 85361 Does a Short BSL Affect Turn Initiation?

Well, moving the heel of a size 6 foot 3 inches to the right while pivoting on the middle or toe turns the foot or ski more degrees than pivoting a size 12 foot heel the same 3 inches. So it would seen that yes, there is a relationship between the pivot force rotation degrees and BSL. It's also why the DIN is different for different BSLs. How that translates to carving a modern ski would differ of course, but I would still guess that different distance between leg/heel and toe or mid arch dies affect initiation dynamics some.

Left is short BSL pivoted hell laterally right and right is long BSL pivoted heel right the same distance, left is more degrees of a turn for the same effort.

While your graphic made me giggle, yes, this is kind of what I have been referring to.

 

[Brian Finch]

Also in the small BSL club & I’d then to agree as with a longer boot, you can be kinda over the ideal mount position, lesser impacted by toe/heel changes & have a smaller foot to dissipate hill chatter / vibrations. Smaller boots also lend more to bottoming out on the plastic sooner & the volume changes lead to colder feet.

 

[Noodler]

Smaller boots also lend more to bottoming out on the plastic sooner & the volume changes lead to colder feet.

?

 

[LiquidFeet]

(I'm doing it "for the science")...

Turn initiation? It's all about the delta... or more specifically, the net ramp angle and related forward lean.

I had an interesting experience this past Friday that I think provides some additional information and investigation for any skier interested in improving their skiing.

On Friday we had some fresh snow to play in so I decided to grab a pair of skis that I hadn't skied in quite some time; well before I did the fore/aft gas pedal testing last season. I was in my new Nordica GPX boots that currently had a 1.5mm shim installed on the toes. The skis have a 2.0mm delta.

I took my first 3 runs and was really not skiing great. I thought it was strange because I remembered liking the skis, but my legs were getting quickly tired and the skis just weren't hooking up well or holding a solid edge. They felt really "loose" and "slarvy" which is not what I like to get from a ski.

After those first 3 runs, the friend I had been skiing with decided to head home (he got a much earlier start than I did), so I hit the next lift alone and had a chance to reflect on what was going on with my skiing. I remembered that I had some additional toe shims in my pocket and decided that on the next run I would test an additional 3mm shim. After adding the shims, everything changed for my skiing and how the skis felt. I immediately felt my skiing was better balanced, turn initiation was solid and instantaneous, and I could feel the entire length of the ski edges grabbing and holding on the snow.

So here's where I think I can provide some new information for other skiers to consider when it comes to determining whether you should experiment with your fore/aft balance alignment. What I noticed when I was not aligned properly was:

1. I felt that I was plantar flexing very hard into the apex of the turn and through the finish (opening the ankle joint)
   
2. Plantar flexing was making the small muscles in my feet hurt quite a bit and my calf muscles were tiring out
3. My normal foot pullback movements were not engaging the tips for the new turn like I'm used to feeling

With the 3mm shims placed under my boot toes (on top of the AFD), I noticed the following changes:

1. I could now easily dorsiflex and keep my ankle joint more closed from the turn apex into the turn finish
2. My feet could "relax"; the muscles in the bottom of my feet stopped hurting and my calves weren't killing me (I felt like I could ski all day with much less effort required)
3. My foot pullback movements were incredibly efficient at getting the skis to easily engage at the top of the turn (as long as I got my feet below my hips I was able to achieve easy turn initiation with fantastic tip engagement)
4. I felt like I could keep my balance well centered over the skis and I had access to the entire length of the ski edges with simple fore/aft adjustments (foot pullback and dorsiflexion)

I really think the big "clue" as to whether you should raise your toes (gas pedal) is the presence of a strong need to plantar flex hard to keep the front of the skis in contact with the snow. There have been lots of posts about the static measurements that show how well aligned your fore/aft stance is (things like plumb bobbing from your kneecaps down to the boot toe, parallel shins to spine, etc.), but I've never seen much regarding what a skier might be feeling in their muscles and their movements when out of alignment. Now that I know what to lookout for, I think I'll know quickly when I'm out of fore/aft alignment (i.e. the delta is probably wrong).

I now have myself convinced that fore/aft alignment is more important to me than lateral alignment (canting). I can still ski fairly well when misaligned laterally (I don't need major amounts of canting), but if the fore/aft is wrong, I cannot even begin to ski at my full potential. If the skis feel loose and aren't holding an edge well, then I can't trust them enough to achieve high edge angles in high speed turns.

I have built 1mm, 2mm, and 3mm shims and ski with them in my pocket. I think these will really come in handy when demoing "foreign" skis with unknown deltas. Many times in the past, I've probably been attributing observations of ski performance that were purely due to a delta situation. I know that the skis on my feet on Friday were completely transformed by the addition of the shims. I'll be demoing skis again tomorrow and if I run into any skis that I'm not "connecting" with, I'm going to grab some of my shims and make the adjustment. I want to see how well this plays out with unknown equipment.

I could have posted this info in any number of the binding delta threads, but decided since this was the most current I would post here (so you won @AmyPJ. ).

Very interesting. I'll be working on some stuff with your observations this season.
Thanks for writing this up.