Bootfitting Discussion from the thread: MA and what to focus on next.

[Tlri]

Here’s a quick video of a 9yr old female.
What do you see and where do you go next?

Boot is a 2 buckle with the top buckle as loose as it will go while still buckled to help open ankle ROM.

 

[Josh Matta]

no one has said but real truth of the matter is most 2 buckle kids boots are entirely too upright for anyone to actually be able to ski well in. Go buy some real boots.

 

[PeterMN]

....

no one has said but real truth of the matter is most 2 buckle kids boots are entirely too upright for anyone to actually be able to ski well in. Go buy some real boots.

And those boots would be?...

Fitting boots over the internet is not good practice... but I thought I would get you started in a direction that has worked for my kids.

I have had good luck with Lange boots... consider checking out a Lange RSJ 60 - likely too soft for a 9 yr old, then try the RSJ 65 and if that dosent seem right they do make a RSJ 70...

Good Luck

P

 

[Josh Matta]

heel lift inside the boot makes things worse.....you need to ramp the binding. But dalbello 2 buckle rental boots are pretty awful....

 

[Mike King]

I had added a slight heel lift to see what that would do and it did move her forward slightly.

Lifting the heel moves the person aft, not forward. Try it by having her stand in her boots without a lift. Then put a quarter under the heel. What happens? She'll move aft.

 

[Josh Matta]

Lifting the heel moves the person aft, not forward. Try it by having her stand in her boots without a lift. Then put a quarter under the heel. What happens? She'll move aft.

that isnt true....and is awful advice. if it was true all of our boots would have no forward ramp and everyone ramp angle would be the same.

Lifting heels(on the outside of the boot) will bring people forward who unable to get forward enough due to their body structure, lifting toes will bring people back, which will then let them move forward. It has to do with first the ramp/zeppa/forward lean of the boots, and then how long the skiers tib/fib ratio is. I Personally ski with a 2mm external heel lift, because with out I literally fall backwards while skiing bumps without. Without the heel lift I am aft.

If she was my kid the first thing I would do if I was unable to find reasonable kids race boot is to shim then rear binding between 2-4mm. If she was ramped to far forward her knees/ankles would be over flexxed, not her waist. All other advice in this thread is null. This girl can not get better until her alignment centers her on the ski, and it will fix all of the other issues.

 

[markojp]

Agree with Josh's thoughts on the matter. Heel lifts also work for folks with limited dorsiflexion. I ski with roughly 3-4mm heel lifts as my dorsiflexion isn't spectacular. Getting fore aft alignment dialed is a combination of factors. Saying 'heel lifts put one back' just isn't necessarily correct.

 

[razie]

Lifting the heel moves the person aft, not forward. Try it by having her stand in her boots without a lift. Then put a quarter under the heel. What happens? She'll move aft.

It depends on the individual body configuration and the rest of the setup and the point is really to put them in balance rather than fore or aft. Often, the increased ankle range of movement is the best result of the heel lift. I use 10mm on all boots (maybe it's too much, but that was the shim on sale that day ).

OP - don't mess too much with the equipment so early, other than getting proper boots and skis. You may create so much compensation she won't know where natural balance is anymore...

 

[Josh Matta]

@razie external heel lift has nothing to do with dorisi flexion. It has everything to do with how upright the boot is, and if the person tib/femur ratio needs it.

 

[James]

I use 10mm on all boots (maybe it's too much, but that was the shim on sale that day

Goodness! Nearly 3/8 inch.

The consensus in the thread is the child's boots need to go.

 

[razie]

@razie external heel lift has nothing to do with dorisi flexion. It has everything to do with how upright the boot is, and if the person tib/femur ratio needs it.

Hmm - I thought the OP added an internal heel lift - that would be the one I referred to...

I don't think adjusting the delta/ramp would really make a difference until the skier's in boots that support him/her fore/aft well, so we know where the balance is ? Although, sure enough, it makes a difference for street shoes as well...

 

[Mike King]

It depends on the individual body configuration and the rest of the setup and the point is really to put them in balance rather than fore or aft. Often, the increased ankle range of movement is the best result of the heel lift. I use 10mm on all boots (maybe it's too much, but that was the shim on sale that day ).

OP - don't mess too much with the equipment so early, other than getting proper boots and skis. You may create so much compensation she won't know where natural balance is anymore...

Try the experiment I suggested and you will see that the result is to move the person aft: as the heel of the boot is lifted, the tibia is moved forward and to remain in balance, the knee must flex, resulting in the hip moving aft. There might be reasons to do so (such as limitations in the ability to dorsiflex), but such adjustments should be made based on anatomy, not based on the skier's predilection to ski fore/aft unless that's a limitation of their anatomy.

Dave McPhail believes most boot/binding setups have too much ramp/delta -- see https://skimoves.me/category/zeppa-delta-angle-posts/.

Mike

 

[razie]

such adjustments should be made based on anatomy, not based on the skier's predilection to ski fore/aft

I thought that was the point of my post? Maybe I should read that again...

It depends on the individual body configuration and the rest of the setup and the point is really to put them in balance rather than fore or aft.

Right... yeah, that was it!



N.B. As to trying a lift, if you re-read my last posts... I just said that I use a 10mm lift.

 

[razie]

Goodness! Nearly 3/8 inch.

Yeah - I know but Tognar for some reason sells just 10-13mm lifts, that was the smallest. It created some visible improvement, so I didn't bother, I just ordered more yeah, I should perhaps try to find some smaller ones and video the difference - now I see they sell a 7mm wedge too, but they're not quite the same thing.

 

[Mike King]

It depends on the individual body configuration and the rest of the setup and the point is really to put them in balance rather than fore or aft. Often, the increased ankle range of movement is the best result of the heel lift. I use 10mm on all boots (maybe it's too much, but that was the shim on sale that day ).

The point I was making is that the lift isn't likely to affect their balance UNLESS there is a range of motion issue that is limiting their ability to balance over the foot. In other words, if the mechanic of the skiing is to use the ski as a lever and balance against the tail or tip, you aren't likely to affect that movement pattern by messing with the boot UNLESS the culprit is some range of movement limitation in the anatomy of the protagonist. You've got to get them to use their skeleton to establish balance, not their equipment.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

And one last thing: the original reason I posted in response to you, @razie, is that the effect of lifting the heel of the boot is not to move you forward, as you suggested, but is to move you aft.

Mike

 

[razie]

And one last thing: the original reason I posted in response to you, @razie, is that the effect of lifting the heel of the boot is not to move you forward, as you suggested, but is to move you aft.

Mike

I'm not sure what the issue is, Mike - at no point did I suggest it will put one forward. I thought I repeatedly stated that the result was to put one in balance rather than fore or aft... darn, I used the same words again.

It depends on the individual body configuration and the rest of the setup and the point is really to put them in balance rather than fore or aft

For me, personally however, and I did not talk about it until this point, the result of a massive heel lift of 10mm was in fact to help put me more forward, but I know the biomechanics of it is perhaps counter-intuitive, I'm not even going to go there - that's just food for thought. Balance is a dynamic affair, not a static state of mind.

I think all the relevant things were said already. OP - get her good boots and appropriate skis and take it from there.

 

[markojp]

And one last thing: the original reason I posted in response to you, @razie, is that the effect of lifting the heel of the boot is not to move you forward, as you suggested, but is to move you aft.

Mike

Mike, not to beat a dead horse, but this just isn't universally accurate at all.

 

[Mike King]

Mike, not to beat a dead horse, but this just isn't universally accurate at all.

Well, I've seen it with my own eyes and it came from Jim Lindsey, who might have fit quite a few world cup boots for both current and former world cup racers.

Mike

 

[markojp]

Well, I've seen it with my own eyes and it came from Jim Lindsey, who might have fit quite a few world cup boots for both current and former world cup racers.

Mike

Again, the key word is universal. I doubt Josh or I ski in the back seat. I very much doubt if you watched either of us ski that you'd think,"gosh, they have heel lifts''. I've seen improperly set up boots with my own eyes as well... both with and without heel lifts. I've found no universals. My question... Do you imagine a WC athlete's lower leg is similar to most people walking into a shop? Do you think Steve Nyman's boot set up resembles Bode's? Or Mikaela's looks like LV's? What I think Jim might say is "heel lifts are often used too indiscriminately", and I'd agree, but I don't know Jim, so I can't really venture to guess. You and I, we'll just have to agree to disagree. All I know is that any time I find myself thinking in absolutes, I need to revisit my assumptions that lead me to a particular conclusion.