Boot Doc vs Zipfit liners for a fused ankle?

[surfandski]

The past 4 years have been a journey after shattering my ankle (tibia and fibula) and I've been doing a lot of experimenting with my boots and alignment the past couple of years. In April 2018 I had my ankle fused with surgery #3 which alleviated the bone on bone crime from not having any cartilage left but it left me with very little dorsi-flexion which isn't exactly optimal for skiing. So I was in much less pain this past season but had a definite speed limit in chop or bumps which I thought was from the boot flexing more than my now joint-less ankle could handle which made audibly groan every time I'd hit a bump or g-out. However, I had surgery #4 this April to have all of the hardware removed and spent the last week in April testing it by lapping KT-22 with almost zero pain so it appeared to have more to do with my bone and the metal bending differently when exceeding my ROM. With the 3 plates removed, my bone can now bend without feeling like the screws were going to rip out.

With each surgery, new bone formed around the injured area (instep and malleoli) to where my fused ankle is now much higher volume than my healthy skinny ankle. So last season I bought some Zip Fits Gara liners and left all of the OMfit in my good ankle and removed most of it in my "cankle" and they are awesome liners but even with all of the OMfit removed, that instep area is maxed and it makes it very difficult to close my boots (Lange RS130) as the plastic barely overlaps in the instep area. To make matters worse, I have tall heal lifts in to open up my non-flexing ankle which raises everything up but the problem is really my high volume ankle because I have no problem closing the liner that has much more OMfit and the same heal lift on my good ankle.

So it has me considering foam liners so that each ankle is custom given how different mine are but I'm wondering if there are any trade offs vs the Zipfits which I love. Are foam liners comparable in stiffness as I need as stiff of a boot as possible so that I don't bottom out as easily when skiing bumps? Do they make different types of foam for those wanting a stiffer liner/boot? It would be pretty sweet if they have an option for a stiffer foam that would bump my 130 up to a 140 or 150. Everyone talked about how hard it would be to get in and out of 2 piece boots so I bought some Dalbello Kryptons (hated them), only to find out it is no problem at all to get into my performance shell fit Langes without being able to point my toes. It's actually making me wonder if I couldn't get into a plug boot as these 130s feel too soft given that I weigh 193 lbs. With my slightly wider feet and now high volume ankle, I'm in the 100mm last but does Lange or anyone even make a 150ish plug that could take a high volume ankle because I would love the same fit of my RS130 only 10-20 stiffer?

Are the BD liners quite a bit lower volume than the Zipfits? With virtually all of the OMfit removed on my bad ankle, the liner itself is still fairly bulky so I'm wondering how much less bulky the BD liner would be. Are they pretty minimalist prior to adding the foam? My Zipfits have the leather on the outside so there is quite a few layers of material making them fairly thick even without any OMfit inside.

The Zipfits are very comfortable so would foam liners likely be comparable and with the same heal hold? I've heard a few mixed reviews on the BD liners but am guessing a lot of it has to do with the experience of the bootfitter and the foaming process. Our ski trip this season has us starting in Denver (visiting friends and day tripping to WP, Copper and hey, now maybe A-Basin) then to J-Hole, Big Sky, SLC, etc so there are multiple places we could have the liners done but I'd say around Denver or J-Hole would be best so that I have them early in the season. Who are the BD gurus in those areas?

Any other things to consider or know about when deciding if I should try foam liners? If I can get my Zipfits to work than I'd love to keep them and I did shave down my heal lifts a bit when at Squaw in April and may try to lower them some more which may give a little more room. Thanks for your help!

 

[surfandski]

I just measured and the circumference difference between my good and bad ankle is 1.5" around the malleoli.

 

[SBrown]

pinging @Noodler

 

[Jilly]

My husband had a fused ankle too. He played with his liners including adding a Dr. Scholl's ankle donut. We don't seem to have any on these after market liners in Canada. But one of the biggest helps was a heel lift. Since he couldn't bend his ankle, he needed help to avoid the "backseat". That seems to work for him, so it's a suggestion too.

 

[ski otter 2]

The past 4 years have been a journey after shattering my ankle (tibia and fibula) and I've been doing a lot of experimenting with my boots and alignment the past couple of years. In April 2018 I had my ankle fused with surgery #3 which alleviated the bone on bone crime from not having any cartilage left but it left me with very little dorsi-flexion which isn't exactly optimal for skiing. So I was in much less pain this past season but had a definite speed limit in chop or bumps which I thought was from the boot flexing more than my now joint-less ankle could handle which made audibly groan every time I'd hit a bump or g-out. However, I had surgery #4 this April to have all of the hardware removed and spent the last week in April testing it by lapping KT-22 with almost zero pain so it appeared to have more to do with my bone and the metal bending differently when exceeding my ROM. With the 3 plates removed, my bone can now bend without feeling like the screws were going to rip out.
.........
The Zipfits are very comfortable so would foam liners likely be comparable and with the same heal hold? I've heard a few mixed reviews on the BD liners but am guessing a lot of it has to do with the experience of the bootfitter and the foaming process. Our ski trip this season has us starting in Denver (visiting friends and day tripping to WP, Copper and hey, now maybe A-Basin) then to J-Hole, Big Sky, SLC, etc so there are multiple places we could have the liners done but I'd say around Denver or J-Hole would be best so that I have them early in the season. Who are the BD gurus in those areas?

Thanks for your help!

Not in Denver, to my knowledge. Chuck at Racer's Edge, in Breck. There are a couple of good ones in Eagle/Vail/Avon area, I've only heard. Others might know who those guys are. I'd have to think J-Hole would have one. Nice to hear how you're doing!

 

[jmills115]

I went to Brent at Park City Ski Boot planning to go with a BD liner after reading the thread here. I can’t offer anything about the BD liner as he wanted me to ski my boots with the stock liners first but am happy with everything he’s done for me with my boots

http://www.parkcityskiboot.com/

 

[EricG]

I used the BootDoc foam liners last year. They were awesome feet were plenty warm and the fit was awesome. It comes down to finding a good boot tech that has BootDoc experience and communicates with you during the foaming of the liner.

 

[surfandski]

I used the BootDoc foam liners last year. They were awesome feet were plenty warm and the fit was awesome. It comes down to finding a good boot tech that has BootDoc experience and communicates with you during the foaming of the liner.

Good to hear. I'm hoping someone can chime in with a recommendation in J-Hole or Big Sky. I suppose I can wait until SLC since we'll be there for 3.5 weeks but not until weeks 4-6 of our trip and I'd prefer to get them done earlier on.

 

[James]

There's Stephen McDonald who's st Teton Sports I think. He used to be on epicski. No idea if he has BD foam as opposed to any other foam, or hoam at all.
He put out a small book on boots several years ago.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007K8DFPC/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1565104072&sr=8-3

 

[Near Nyquist]

There's Stephen McDonald who's st Teton Sports I think. He used to be on epicski. No idea if he has BD foam as opposed to any other foam, or hoam at all.
He put out a small book on boots several years ago.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007K8DFPC/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1565104072&sr=8-3

http://www.skidcouture.com

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

A good friend of mine used Grizzly Outfitters in Big Sky for years; Andrew who is the owner was her fitter.. They are listed as being boot doc providers.

 

[erdz]

Having skied and sold both of these liners i would go with the Zipfit. With a fused ankle the BD will be very difficult to put on. Putting the BD on your foot and then into your boot - a la Zipfit - would be difficult due to the high friction surface of the BD liner. I would find someone with a similar boot size with a BD liner and see if you can get into the boot, and nevermind the fit. You might want to think about a different shell (as much as i love my lange ZA ! ). A Krypton with a stiff tongue maybe

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

^^^True. It is really hard to get my foot into the boot with the liner on. I leave the liner in the boot, unlaced and put my foot in with the liner installed.

 

[cem]

there are a few things you could try, personally i am a fan of zipfit over foam as you can tune the fit after use and top things up, you can also move the liner form shell to shell without any major problem you can also milk material out of the liner should you need to gain more space over that ankle (takes a bit of effort but makes a big difference)

lange are making that heritage boot the XTi it is a pink RX in 97mm last and 140 flex so might give you that little extra stiffness
if the RS 130 works for you then pulse labs in Revelstoke make a thing called the pro flex plate which stiffens a boot up quite a lot, it might make things a little harder to get into again, but that compromise might be worth it.

re boot fitters...... if you are in the park city area then Brent Amsbury is your man

good luck getting sorted

 

[surfandski]

Having skied and sold both of these liners i would go with the Zipfit. With a fused ankle the BD will be very difficult to put on. Putting the BD on your foot and then into your boot - a la Zipfit - would be difficult due to the high friction surface of the BD liner. I would find someone with a similar boot size with a BD liner and see if you can get into the boot, and nevermind the fit. You might want to think about a different shell (as much as i love my lange ZA ! ). A Krypton with a stiff tongue maybe

That's good to know about the higher friction of the BD. The Zipfits slide in with no issue, though I do use one of those thin pieces of plastic (boot horn maybe) to allow the heal to slide in without damaging the Zipfit liner. I bought a pair of Kryptons and did not like the 3 piece style at all. I have a long tibia and that low top buckle on those made the boot feel like it was an inch or so shorter of a shell than my traditional boots. Maybe it's my compromised ankle but I couldn't get those off fast enough.

 

[surfandski]

^^^True. It is really hard to get my foot into the boot with the liner on. I leave the liner in the boot, unlaced and put my foot in with the liner installed.

That could maybe still work with my fused ankle but putting the zipfit liner on first sure made it easier to get in and out of even when cold.

 

[surfandski]

there are a few things you could try, personally i am a fan of zipfit over foam as you can tune the fit after use and top things up, you can also move the liner form shell to shell without any major problem you can also milk material out of the liner should you need to gain more space over that ankle (takes a bit of effort but makes a big difference)

lange are making that heritage boot the XTi it is a pink RX in 97mm last and 140 flex so might give you that little extra stiffness
if the RS 130 works for you then pulse labs in Revelstoke make a thing called the pro flex plate which stiffens a boot up quite a lot, it might make things a little harder to get into again, but that compromise might be worth it.

re boot fitters...... if you are in the park city area then Brent Amsbury is your man

good luck getting sorted

I love the Zipfits but I have removed virtually all of the OMfit from the tongue and around the ankle (I have probably about 3-4' of 1/2" tubing full of it) and it's still a challenge to close the shell around it because the overlapping pieces right above the instep are pushed open and I have to be very careful to get them just barely overlapping before clipping the latch. Some of this is due to the extra girth of my cankle and some of it is from the tall heel lifts. I will continue to shave down the heel lifts as I experiment to find my limits after having the plates removed so I may gain a little more room.

 

[surfandski]

CEM- thanks for mentioning that Proflex plate as that looks like it could be a good option to stiffen up my boots. I bought some of the Nordica race plates which are similar but I haven't installed them and these look more substantial.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

That could maybe still work with my fused ankle but putting the zipfit liner on first sure made it easier to get in and out of even when cold.

I have to heat the boots or it is really brutal to get them on. Interestingly enough, off is not a problem.

 

[surfandski]

I have to heat the boots or it is really brutal to get them on. Interestingly enough, off is not a problem.

I do use a heated boot bag and it sure does make it nice! I share the love and put my wife's boots in with mine so we both start the day in warm boot heaven.