Bend

[Uke]

Question for instructors. Do you actually teach your students to bend the ski? For me the bending of the ski has always been a given, something that happens and there is no need to try to teach it. Put on boots and skis and move around on the snow and the ski will be bent. I occasionally point out how the sidecut works with a bent ski to create an arc but never felt the need to teach 'you have to bend the ski'.

uke

 

[LiquidFeet]

Interesting question. I do what you do, Uke. I treat bending the ski as a by-product and so don't pay much attention to it.

I don't get the opportunity to teach recreational skiers who want to carve very often. My clients are still working on finding functional ways to shape a turn, so I deal with replacing dysfunctional movements with functional ones. If I were to incorporate "bending the ski" into a lesson, my poor clients would get confused and then try to bend it by pushing on it. I don't want them to do that.

In my own skiing, I do not "stomp on the ski" at the fall line/apex of the turn in order to bend it more. If I'm trying to shorten the radius on a dime, I shorten the inside leg more, and I do that quickly. I've watched race kids stomping on the ski at the fall line. That's got to be their interpretation of something a coach has said to them about bending the ski. World Cup racers do not exhibit such "stomping" movements. Seems like a not-good thing to me. I edge it more by flexing the inside leg more, which will indeed bend it more.

I am curious to read what others do.

I hope technical discussions are back to stay.

 

[Jilly]

Exactly LF...it would lead to "stomping" and just confuse a student.

It's a result of proper technique.

 

[Bill Miles]

I stay in Bend when I ski Mt. Bachelor

 

[Mike King]

Sure, I teach my upper level students to bend the ski. How? By getting early edge engagement through tipping and properly aligning the body to the outside ski. I explain why we want the ski to bend, and that that engagement is what we are after. That's the output that they then are looking for. Then we can go and see what movements are successful in obtaining that result...

Mike

 

[Steve]

I show beginners how the self steering effect works. I take off a ski, get down on the ground and show them how if I tip the ski and press on it, it bends. I then move the ski forward in the snow and show them how it makes a turn all by itself.

 

[karlo]

No

 

[oldschoolskier]

I think the importance of how you bend a ski and when you teach this concept depends more at what level the skier is. At the lower and mid levels the the action is more important than the understanding so it not teaching to bend but to move correctly. At the higher levels the why and how may become important depending on what is being taught.

 

[Eleeski]

Bachelor is near Bend. Fun ski area. Deschutes brewery makes excellent beer in Bend.

Skis don't bend to cause turns (I know this is heresy but I built a ski that would not bend which (only) carved wonderfully on ice (it was unskiable on soft snow). See the PSIman toy videos of a rigid ski carving.).

However, if you imagine a ski bending in a carve and pressure the ski accordingly, the carve works like magic. So it is a very valid teaching tool.

Eric

 

[Bendzeekneez]

No

I agree with this and at the same time would also say Yes..it all depends on the skier.

 

[mister moose]

Tell me how the student will know if his ski is bent (While he is moving in the turn)... Does he look at it? Is there a meter reading?

 

[Mike King]

Tell me how the student will know if his ski is bent (While he is moving in the turn)... Does he look at it? Is there a meter reading?

If it is on edge, it is bent. But being bent is not the important thing. I believe what we would prefer to see is that the ski is moving along it's length rather than across its width (generally speaking). What I'm hoping the student does is to lean to tip the ski on edge thereby establishing the platform that can accept the pressure that will build in the turn and allow the ski to bend rather than push to ski to an edge until the ski is bent and the ultimate deflection of the ski redirects the skier in the turn.

 

[mister moose]

If it is on edge, it is bent. Not sure that's true. But being bent is not the important thing. I believe what we would prefer to see is that the ski is moving along it's length rather than across its width (generally speaking). What I'm hoping the student does is to lean to tip the ski on edge thereby establishing the platform that can accept the pressure (Can't a flat ski accept pressure?) that will build in the turn and allow the ski to bend rather than push to ski to an edge until the ski is bent and the ultimate deflection of the ski redirects the skier in the turn.

You're addressing how the ski bends. Steps, sequence, specific actions. I asked how the student knows if their ski is bent.

 

[oldschoolskier]

You're addressing how the ski bends. Steps, sequence, specific actions. I asked how the student knows if their ski is bent.

Most skiers, more so beginners look at their skis and see that their skis are bent, whether they realize they look or not is a different question. Want to dispute that, you look at you feet to place them under certain circumstances, ha, now that I’ve pointed it out you’ll notice it.

It is something we do (instinctual part of balancing) and it generally goes unnoticed, same with skis. So yes they see it but don’t notice it.

 

[mister moose]

Most skiers, more so beginners look at their skis and see that their skis are bent, ...

I don't follow this. Sure, you can stand still in a trough and see that your ski is bent. You can stand still, place your ski on an exaggerated edge, press on it, and see that the ski flexes, or is bent slightly. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about while skiing. When your eye is 5-6 feet above the ski, you don't see the ski from the side. Not to mention survival kicks in and you look away rapidly simply to see what you're about to run into. You can see someone else's ski from the side, but I don't think you can adequately see your own ski from the side. I'm pretty sure I've bent my skis, and I'm pretty sure I've looked down in a flash. I'm not sure I've ever quantitatively seen my skis bent while in motion. How does a student know if his ski is bent?

 

[Wilhelmson]

I think that feeling the bend goes along with feeling the rebound energy when releasing out of the turn. Some narrow cambered skis feel extra poppy that js noticeable in a decent turn. Beginner skis might bend more easily but even if a student knew what to feel for i doubt it would be noticable. We could probably easily bend a kids ski but all we would feel is it feeling floppy.

 

[slowrider]

Last time I was on rentals they carved fine on soft groomers at low speed. Anything else and the fronts started folding. That will back you off the throttle.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I don't follow this. Sure, you can stand still in a trough and see that your ski is bent. You can stand still, place your ski on an exaggerated edge, press on it, and see that the ski flexes, or is bent slightly. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about while skiing. When your eye is 5-6 feet above the ski, you don't see the ski from the side. Not to mention survival kicks in and you look away rapidly simply to see what you're about to run into. You can see someone else's ski from the side, but I don't think you can adequately see your own ski from the side. I'm pretty sure I've bent my skis, and I'm pretty sure I've looked down in a flash. I'm not sure I've ever quantitatively seen my skis bent while in motion. How does a student know if his ski is bent?

Whether you believe it or not, you do look down, it part human nature whether you are aware of it or not is another issue. Subconsciously you see the ski bend, just as you see where you place your foot in difficult terrain “without looking”. You being to understand this when you start wearing progressive or bifocals as they sort of ruin this downwards glance until you adjust (some never can).

Again back to my earlier post, a beginner needs to learn to do an action to cause a result. An intermediate/advanced skier can now learn and understand the mechanism of the action.

Don’t confuse or merge these two learning actions, the first is muscle memory (hinter brain, natures way for us to learn), the second is conceptual (logical, intellectual way to learn). They tend to work against each other, with the second tripping up the first, pun intended.

 

[mister moose]

Whether you believe it or not, you do look down, it part human nature whether you are aware of it or not is another issue. Subconsciously you see the ski bend, just as you see where you place your foot in difficult terrain “without looking”. You being to understand this when you start wearing progressive or bifocals as they sort of ruin this downwards glance until you adjust (some never can).

Again back to my earlier post, a beginner needs to learn to do an action to cause a result. An intermediate/advanced skier can now learn and understand the mechanism of the action.

Yes, I do look down, although "down" is more like 3-10 feet in front of my tips. I rarely look at the terrain actually under my feet while I'm moving, subconscious or not. It's just too much head motion. Clothing and legs are in the way, obstructing your view of the length of the ski.

What I'm getting at is I think bending the ski is the result of other forces and leg position. If the ski is bent on edge, 2 things happen:

1) You turn
2) You create and increase centripetal force from the acceleration of the turn

So my answer is you know the ski is bent if you feel centripetal force. The greater the centripetal force, the more the ski is bent. Another indicator is if the skier's COM moves inside the inner foot. That's a pretty good benchmark of a skier that knows how to bend the ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Question for instructors. Do you actually teach your students to bend the ski? ....

I can feel a diving board bend when I move along it.
I've been on skis that deliver that feeling.
I've been on more skis that don't.

If I increase the edge angle to tighten a turn, I know how it works. That shortened radius happens because I've bent the ski more. That doesn't mean I feel the diving board effect.

And my movements to bend the ski more were directed towards increasing the edge angle, not bending the ski. To increase that edge angle, I flexed the inside leg more, and/or pulled the inside foot back more, or rolled its knee down toward the snow more, and/or rolled my ankles more, and/or angulated more. Maybe other stuff too. I'm thinking in my head about my line and doing those movements. I'm not thinking about the edge angle, nor the snow pushing back on my skis, and certainly not about how much the ski is bent.

In answer to the OP, I do not instruct my intermediate students, nor my beginners, nor the kids, to "bend the ski." I don't even ask them to think about "bending" it since they probably can't feel it. If I used those words, they would most likely take the direct approach and push on the outside ski. I see that pushing move in young racers all the time.

I do instruct my students to move body parts in specific ways.