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Balancing onto the new outside ski as primary move

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agent00F

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The other day I was looking to refine carving edge to edge, and mother nature presented a challenge. The morning corduroy was pretty icy, and the sky stayed cloudy most of the day. Needless to say, the technique described in my previous thread of throwing weight/momentum into balance on the downhill ski was facing some trouble on the hard unforgiving surface. Now, one of the advantages of keeping balance as the priority is that even when the outside ski loses its edge, the body seems to naturally step onto the inside foot. That doesn't produce a great hold, but enough to set the outside down again to prevent shooting off into the trees.

Regardless, some problem solving was necessary and thoughts about my solution are appreciated. As mentioned in said prior thread I already had some notion/advice of moving the inside foot back during a turn, and given that it's soon to be the new outside, spent some turns feeling out what's going on underneath there before it gets pressured onto the ice. Well as it turns out, paying attention to how it's set down beneath the body for balance is a natural prerequisite to balancing (forward) onto it. It didn't take too long before setting that edge onto a slippery surface improved drastically, and I could play a "game" of sorts with the challenge being to set it down gently and smoothly before the body's momentum forces rain upon it.

Another observation is it felt as if that also solves the dilemma of where/how to angle the hips coming into a turn, since the approx correct answer is however forward or back on the inside hip needed to place the foot/heel in the "best" balancing point for what's coming up. That implies more back(ward) to anticipate more forward lean into the next turn. I've read a lot of differing explanations of optimal hip placement, and perhaps they're more similar than they can appear, but this method at least has the advantage of pursing some degree of immediate utility.

As an aside, there was that closed thread discussing ankle movement. I can't pretend to understand or even read too much of it, but during this day's exercise how that inside ankle felt as it went from edge to edge did crop up. When it's leaned over sufficiently, body weight on top turns it over (as if it's about to be sprang) when it's pressed against the inside of the boot, and as everything cranks over to the other edge (when it becomes the outside ankle), the foot/angle sprangs the other way given enough edge angle on the opposing side. I tried flexing the muscles within to pretty minor effect, and it seemed as though the ankle position was more a symptom/"result" of outside balancing forces rather than a causal factor in the chain.

Finally, the equipment purists would be pleased that this day was the first on new-to-me SL skis. They were a bit longer radius than the rentals and had much quicker rebound with a semi race plate. Probably would've been smarter to try on a less icy day, but it worked out in the end.
 

Johnny V.

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Finally, the equipment purists would be pleased that this day was the first on new-to-me SL skis. They were a bit longer radius than the rentals and had much quicker rebound with a semi race plate. Probably would've been smarter to try on a less icy day, but it worked out in the end.

Assuming they are tuned with sharp edges, slalom skis are a good choice on icy days.
 

dbostedo

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What do you mean by how the inside ski is "set down"? Is it in the air at any point? Or are you talking about tipping?
 

Fuller

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Another observation is it felt as if that also solves the dilemma of where/how to angle the hips coming into a turn, since the approx correct answer is however forward or back on the (new or old?) inside hip needed to place the foot/heel in the "best" balancing point for what's coming up. That implies more back(ward) to anticipate more forward lean into the next turn. I've read a lot of differing explanations of optimal hip placement, and perhaps they're more similar than they can appear, but this method at least has the advantage of pursing some degree of immediate utility.

You need to clarify which hip you are referring to. It is my understanding that in short turns and medium length carved turns the hips should be oriented or at least held in tension towards the fall line. That would mean the inside hip stays forward to accomplish that goal but the inside ski is held back to enhance the turn and to stay balanced over the outside ski. Easier said than done from my perspective but at least now I can feel it when it goes wrong.
 

LiquidFeet

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@agent00F, are you having trouble carving on an icy day? Start with a straight run, begin turns by lifting the new inside ski a LITTLE off the snow, parallel to the snow surface, and tipping it to its little toe edge (LTE) in the air (big toe edge goes up, little toe edge goes down). Left turns, left foot, tip it to the left. This may involve ankle-tipping, or knee pointing, or whatever. Just do it.

Do what you need to do with all the rest of your body to balance on that new outside ski as it slices its way across the ice all the way through the turn. If it slips instead of carving, stop and push reset. This may take a while to figure out. Repeat on the opposite side. Do this inside-ski-lifting for turn initiation over and over and over.

Once you can do it easily on both sides, just lighten that new inside ski to start the new turn. Let it slightly, lightly, track across the snow, tipping it to its LTE as before. Speed control comes from shortening the turn radius by getting higher edge angles, which I think you already know.

These are called Outside-Ski-to-Outside-Ski turns. Do them when there's no one ahead of you to run into when your attention is focused on balancing instead of on people who might be in your line. Abort when they are. Startled skiers are unpredictable.
 
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speedster

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@agent00F, are you having trouble carving on an icy day? Start with a straight run, begin turns by lifting the new inside ski a LITTLE off the snow, parallel to the snow surface, and tipping it to its little toe edge (LTE) in the air (big toe edge goes up, little toe edge goes down). This may involve ankle-tipping, or knee pointing, or whatever. Just do it.

Do what you need to do with all the rest of your body to balance on that new outside ski as it slices its way across the ice all the way through the turn. This may take a while to figure out. Repeat on the opposite side. Do this over and over and over. Once you can do it easily, just lighten that new inside ski to start the new turn. Let it slightly, lightly, track across the snow, tipping it to its LTE as before.

Speed control comes from shortening the turn radius by getting higher edge angles.

These are called outside-ski-to-outside-ski turns. Do them when there's no one ahead of you to run into when your attention is focused on balancing instead of on people who might be in your line. Abort when they are.

Sounds like PMTS :hug:
 

LiquidFeet

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It works.
This version is less complicated than the Super Phantom of PMTS.
I've gotten it from a PSIA demo team leader as well.
Rick Schnellman has it in his inventory of drills somewhere.
I'm sure it's everywhere out there in ski-teaching-land.
 
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Josh Matta

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all of PMTS lies with in PSIA, but there are tactics and skills that PSIA uses that PMTS will never use.

Niether side has a monoply on skiing with the in the realm of physics.
 
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agent00F

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What do you mean by how the inside ski is "set down"? Is it in the air at any point? Or are you talking about tipping?

When first trying it out it would be at times, but as I learned finer control it's more of a "shift", preferable when possible just moving it back and forth in its tracks rather than laterally. It's distinct from tipping, it's guestimating heuristically whereabouts it should be in order to have easiest transitional balance/load onto it as it becomes the outside ski. For example, if it's too far forward, it's harder to get the body back over in front of it before body weight loads on, which then limits your options for the upcoming turn.

You need to clarify which hip you are referring to. It is my understanding that in short turns and medium length carved turns the hips should be oriented or at least held in tension towards the fall line. That would mean the inside hip stays forward to accomplish that goal but the inside ski is held back to enhance the turn and to stay balanced over the outside ski. Easier said than done from my perspective but at least now I can feel it when it goes wrong.

Yes there's a limit to how much I can move everything back on the inside without upsetting balance, but from the body momentum mgmt referred to previously I have some sense of how much to be in front of the inside ski as it loads up. Ie. the more I anticipate acceleration out the more I try to get it back. Because I'm feeling that foot/edge as it loads up, there's feedback as to the quality of that guestimate, which then presumably improves with more practice.

What I think you're referring is the relative position of the hip to the ski, which are separate points of control. I haven't really thought much about that, at this point just doing what feels about right in terms of balance, but it makes sense to avoid rotating the hips too much in shorter turns and I'll pay more attention next time.

@agent00F, are you having trouble carving on an icy day? Start with a straight run, begin turns by lifting the new inside ski a LITTLE off the snow, parallel to the snow surface, and tipping it to its little toe edge (LTE) in the air (big toe edge goes up, little toe edge goes down). Left turns, left foot, tip it to the left. This may involve ankle-tipping, or knee pointing, or whatever. Just do it.

Do what you need to do with all the rest of your body to balance on that new outside ski as it slices its way across the ice all the way through the turn. If it slips instead of carving, stop and push reset. This may take a while to figure out. Repeat on the opposite side. Do this inside-ski-lifting for turn initiation over and over and over.

Once you can do it easily on both sides, just lighten that new inside ski to start the new turn. Let it slightly, lightly, track across the snow, tipping it to its LTE as before. Speed control comes from shortening the turn radius by getting higher edge angles, which I think you already know.

These are called Outside-Ski-to-Outside-Ski turns. Do them when there's no one ahead of you to run into when your attention is focused on balancing instead of on people who might be in your line. Abort when they are. Startled skiers are unpredictable.
Sounds like PMTS :hug:

Concerning tipping, in the middle part of last year I put a lot of effort into following Harald Harb's pmts movements, which can be more aptly named the church of tipping. (Funnily enough I didn't notice until later he's in Lito's instruction vid which is what I started with). But for whatever reason I just couldn't carve with it, and in hindsight it was because I focused on tipping ahead of balance. There'd be many moments where friction goes to 0 and you realize that's what it kinda should be, but the problem was I couldn't *stay* on the edges on demand. The real difficulty of carving seems to be it's not something to ease into doing a little here and there, because losing the edge at any moment can lead to pain.

There are numerous experts/instructors here, so maybe detailing it from a student's pov would help. At the beginning of this year, it would be accurate to say that on moderate terrain I could stay on edge 90%+ of the time, even 95+%. A more optimistic person might even consider that "carving". But the problem was that last 5-10%, because if that edge goes in the middle of a turn, you can go with it and I often did. I have higher risk tolerance than most, or least pain tolerance, and probably become more proficient at ballet moves and garage sales through abundant recovery attempts than at skiing. Every committed turn was figuratively "on edge", that could turn into a circus ride. I was the proverbial terminal intermediate.

It might be different for others, but in my case it was because the desire to tip outstripped the ability to keep balanced. However the most wonderful thing happened on that fateful day I dropped everything except focus on loading/balancing onto the edges. As I loaded up the outside ski I misjudged the incoming angle so the edge went, and I had every expectation of getting thrown and got ready to flap my arms. But instead I just naturally stood (balanced) onto the inside ski, enough to get the outside down again and everything went into the next turn as if nothing happened. Then it soon happened again with same lack of resulting drama. This was magic. By relatively reliably keeping on the edges I could then experiment safely with everything else, incl. this n move.

In any case, this thread is about this next step in the progression, and I wrote because it worked remarkably well for a day's effort. Putting that inside ski in the right place and feeling the foot/ankle roll onto it made the process seemingly as easy as I could make it.
 

geepers

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but from the body momentum mgmt referred to previously I have some sense of how much to be in front of the inside ski as it loads up. Ie. the more I anticipate acceleration out the more I try to get it back.

This seems a dangerous way to proceed.
 
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