Bad tune?

[Core2]

Took the Enforcers for their first edge tune/sharpen last week. The shop here in Phoenix has tuned all my other skis many times over the years and I've never had issues, in fact I always thought they did great work. Well today when I got the Enforcers on snow they were pretty much un-skiable. The best way I can describe the symptom is they just don't turn well at all. All playfulness and liveliness are gone. When I do get them on edge they grip so hard I almost end up pointed uphill. Softer snow helped but they were just not good. Definitely not the ski I fell in love with prior to the work.

I'm taking them back to the shop to give them a chance to rectify but I am curious what may have happened that effed them up so bad, especially these being pretty damn new? I'm assuming they just run them through the Wintersteiger? Any suggestions on what I should ask them to do this time around? Do I need to request specific edge bevel maybe?

 

[jmeb]

Hard to get on edge, but then too aggressive once on edge -- is that right?

Sounds almost like a lot of base bevel (hard to get on edge) with a lot of side bevel (aggressive once on edge.) The crappy thing is, if that is the case, I believe reducing the base bevel requires a flat stone grind. Which sort of sucks to have to do for a relatively new ski. I'd be asking for more than a free tune if I had to grind my new skis after just a few days.

I bet @Philpug can tell you the "factory specs" which is probably a good starting point.

 

[James]

Hopefully just a hanging burr. Have you checked? Could also be coupled with a concave base underfoot.

 

[Bill Talbot]

Hard to get on edge, but then too aggressive once on edge -- is that right?

Sounds almost like a lot of base bevel (hard to get on edge) with a lot of side bevel (aggressive once on edge.) The crappy thing is, if that is the case, I believe reducing the base bevel requires a flat stone grind. Which sort of sucks to have to do for a relatively new ski. I'd be asking for more than a free tune if I had to grind my new skis after just a few days.

I bet @Philpug can tell you the "factory specs" which is probably a good starting point.

The "factory specs" are all over the place! As for it being a good starting point, well yeah, it's a good reason to go get a proper hand tune from a GOOD shop!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I'd start with just detuning with a gummy stone. Might just be too sharp. Or sharper than you are used to anyway.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I'll bet hanging burr. Just missed a step in finishing.

 

[Bill Talbot]

I'd start with just detuning with a gummy stone. Might just be too sharp. Or sharper than you are used to anyway.

This

 

[Core2]

They are sharp enough I could shave with them.

 

[oldschoolskier]

They are sharp enough I could shave with them.

That's a really good indication of a hanging burr.

 

[Philpug]

The Enforcers HAVE been all the place. My 177 93's were a .7*/3* and my 185's were 1*/3*. I didn't notice what my 177 100's were because I had them tuned before hit snow.

 

[Lady_Salina]

Took the Enforcers for their first edge tune/sharpen last week. The shop here in Phoenix has tuned all my other skis many times over the years and I've never had issues, in fact I always thought they did great work. Well today when I got the Enforcers on snow they were pretty much un-skiable. The best way I can describe the symptom is they just don't turn well at all. All playfulness and liveliness are gone. When I do get them on edge they grip so hard I almost end up pointed uphill. Softer snow helped but they were just not good. Definitely not the ski I fell in love with prior to the work.

I'm taking them back to the shop to give them a chance to rectify but I am curious what may have happened that effed them up so bad, especially these being pretty damn new? I'm assuming they just run them through the Wintersteiger? Any suggestions on what I should ask them to do this time around? Do I need to request specific edge bevel maybe?

Okay I've had good and bad tunes but I had one horrendous tune done at the end of the season in 2014 at The Cliff on Snowbird mountain. I even have photos of what they did to the edges of my skis as I wanted them sent to Montana and was quite concerned with the amount of base grind I was going to need to get them fixed. Apparently on a Montana they grind and texture the base and edge and then fix the edge, they tell me this is standard so I no longer use shops using Montana equipment. I have heard from others this is fine normally but I'll attach photos. They felt rough, would not turn at all and they are wonderful now after taking them in to my shop in Ontario and getting them to grind out the aggressive spring texturing (the shop here said they had never seen anything so aggressive) and left my edges flat and sharp again. What you describe sounds much like this but I can't see why they would have been texturing skis at this time of year. I also specifically asked them not to spring texture them at the time as they were texturing as part of a tune at the time and if they couldn't leave them with no texture or a winter texture not to do them, as I was going to put them away for the season. And the scores in the edges are not just surface scratches you could put a finger nail into them.

Here's the photo crops showing the base texturing extending to the edges. I could basically crop any part of the ski photo and show texturing on the edges but you had to see the crop to see it in the photos. It was very visible when just viewed with the naked eye, even without glasses. I was terrified to give the shop a chance to rectify it as they didn't see what was wrong looking at them.

 

[Lady_Salina]

two more photos that might show it better, it's hard to see in photos, so just cropped tighter

 

[Old boot]

They actually got the "KING GRUMP SEAL OF SEVERE DISAPPROVAL" at the time I was told at the time. That was probibly because to try them he had to squeeze his feet into LS's boots

 

[SlideWright]

Nice corduroy^^^^^

Montana makes excellent machines. BTW.

Core2, Check for Hanging Burr. Don't detune unless you know why.

Hanging Burr
(FAQ)

After performing side edge sharpening and polishing, a hanging burr can be formed which may feel like a razor sharp corner. This can create hooking of the edge and unexpected edge action. Removing the burr is necessary and and easy final edge tuning step.

By placing a hard stone on the base edge, and run along it, the burr can be knocked off and the edge corner polished smooth. A rubber abrasive (dressing, grinding rubber or gummi stone can follow to smooth the sharp corner further.

 

[Lady_Salina]

yes many tell me they make excellent machines but why do they texture my edges? Much prefer to have a Wintersteiger where they don't and when I contacted Montana they defended the shop that did it and informed me this was their normal practice. It is the only tune I ever had had that truly made my ski unskiable.

 

[Scrundy]

I think if that happened to me on the hill. First think I would of done was look for something to run both edges down. Probally would of been eyeballing the aluminum ski racks. One pass on each edge would of probably taken care of it.

 

[Lady_Salina]

I think if that happened to me on the hill. First think I would of done was look for something to run both edges down. Probally would of been eyeballing the aluminum ski racks. One pass on each edge would of probably taken care of it.

Nope, you had to see them. Each of the grooves or scores on the large photos was 1 to 2 millimeters deep, and wide enough to put a finger nail into. The grooves weren't sharp as the edges were ground on their machine (twice as I let them when I took them back the first time) to remove the texturing but this is the result after the second grind. It's really not important what happened to me though.. I am merely saying, check your edges, was any texturing done to the ski that is still visible on the edges. The only way to get it fixed in my case was a base and edge grind which removed all the texturing they put in.

 

[cantunamunch]

yes many tell me they make excellent machines but why do they texture my edges? Much prefer to have a Wintersteiger where they don't and when I contacted Montana they defended the shop that did it and informed me this was their normal practice. It is the only tune I ever had had that truly made my ski unskiable.

Not only should they *not* have textured your edges - they should have stopped the texture 1cm inside the edges. Deep structure next to the edges makes edge engagement spotty and makes the ski track straighter than the sidecut- even when the edges are slightly engaged.

I know 3 shops with Montanas that would refuse to do a grind like ^that^

 

[Core2]

Thank you guys for the replies. I'll examine for hanging burrs and see what I can find.

 

[cantunamunch]

Thank you guys for the replies. I'll examine for hanging burrs and see what I can find.

It's actually easier to fix a hanging burr than to spot it. Take your gummi or fine diamond stone, run it along the base edge and the side edge freehand, then very lightly run it across the sharp edge.

To spot it, you'll need a bright light that you can shine on the edge at odd angles, and then look for glints.