Aspen Skiing Co clamping down on underground instructors

[Tricia]

Well, this is interesting.

Aspen Skiing Co. on lookout for ‘underground’ ski instructors

Underground teaching at Aspen Skiing Co.’s four mountains by instructors outside the company is nothing new, but it’s been on the rise recently. SkiCo is enlisting help to snuff it out.

www.aspendailynews.com

 

[SKI-3PO]

It seems like it wouldn’t be difficult to identity those providing instruction as in many cases it’s probably the same people doing so. But how do they prove that compensation is exchanged? Do the customers admit to it not knowing it’s illegal? Or do they do so under threat of their pass being pulled? Or other means?

 

[snwbrdr]

It seems like it wouldn’t be difficult to identity those providing instruction as in many cases it’s probably the same people doing so. But how do they prove that compensation is exchanged? Do the customers admit to it not knowing it’s illegal? Or do they do so under threat of their pass being pulled? Or other means?

Customers don't know it's illegal, and think they are saving a lot of money. But eventually, it will catch up to the poaching instructors.

Guilty Verdict in Case of Unpermitted Snowboard-Instruction Business on Mammoth Mountain Ski Area, Within the Inyo National Forest

www.justice.gov

 

[raytseng]

It seems like it wouldn’t be difficult to identity those providing instruction as in many cases it’s probably the same people doing so. But how do they prove that compensation is exchanged? Do the customers admit to it not knowing it’s illegal? Or do they do so under threat of their pass being pulled? Or other means?

I think for the full exchange, they set up a sting and pose as a new student, but gather evidence as they go.
Once they have their own full transaction, they can link the sting txn to the past activity, even if that was more circumstantial. Then it shows a pattern and this was not not just a first offense, or entrapment.

To your point, I think if they have the customers, they could get them to inform on the instructor just with the threat of pass pulled and lifetime ban, but it might not always be needed.
They can just social engineer it and get the same info without needing threats (good cop).

 

[dan ross]

Well , the case above is on US forest service land which is a whole different thing altogether from a regulation standpoint than private land where one pays for access to services. Private property owners may have rules and some state statutes but the NPS and USDA /forrest have federal laws regarding unregistered use of federal property. Mammoth had no choice but to crackdown on this .

 

[eric100]

Most of the ski areas are on federal lands. Why cant the system be more like Europe and allow for independent instructors other than it takes away from a significant revenue stream?

 

[Mike King]

Most of the ski areas are on federal lands. Why cant the system be more like Europe and allow for independent instructors other than it takes away from a significant revenue stream?

You answered your own question: money. By granting exclusive rights to the leaseholder, the lease revenue to the US Treasury is maximized.

 

[mdf]

Most of the ski areas are on federal lands. Why cant the system be more like Europe and allow for independent instructors other than it takes away from a significant revenue stream?

You answered your own question: money. By granting exclusive rights to the leaseholder, the lease revenue to the US Treasury is maximized.

But there is no reason a ski area couldn't allow independents if they figured out a way to structure it that made business sense. It already happens to a small extent with the famous-teacher camps.

 

[Wasatchman]

The article doesn't mention it but I'd I were ski resorts I would have undercover people hire rogue instructors via the Craigslist and Facebook ads and then bust them.

I assume the vast majority of rogue instructors are getting their clients via these platforms. This seems much easier than trying to bust them via observation on the mountain.

 

[raytseng]

The article doesn't mention it but I'd I were ski resorts I would have undercover people hire rogue instructors via the Craigslist and Facebook ads and then bust them.

I assume the vast majority of rogue instructors are getting their clients via these platforms. This seems much easier than trying to bust them via observation on the mountain.

That's got to be only the stupidest of the stupidest though, and easy pickings right? Up there with the ads to borrow/"rent" my season pass.

 

[Wasatchman]

That's got to be only the stupidest of the stupidest though, and easy pickings right? Up there with the ads to borrow/"rent" my season pass.

I see it advertised all the time. So as stupid as it may sound I have a feeling it is happening more than you'd think.

 

[raytseng]

I see it advertised all the time. So as stupid as it may sound I have a feeling it is happening more than you'd think.

Plot twist, those are all catfishing ads from Aspen Security to catch clients.

Lol, but see my post- to make the charges stick, helps if you can show a pattern or pile on more evidence from natural transactions.

 

[Tricia]

I've been percolating on this from a variety of angles

• When we had ESA at Aspen we went through proper channels and had access to instructors from Aspen for the camp
• I am a believer in the resort having control over ski school and not allowing underground for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is, they own the infrastructure, and underground instructor is essentially a theft of use of that infrastructure to make $$
• I've skied at Aspen with a few instructor friends, just as friends, and have gotten some pointers while skiing together but did NOT have actual instruction. (my ski instructor friends know I need all the pointers I can get)
• If I ski at Aspen this winter with one of my instructor friends, is this something that I should be sensitive about, so I don't get a friend in trouble?
• The story about Don Lemos is interesting. I had no idea. (link below for those interested)

Remembering Don (Donald) Michael Lemos

March 18, 1938 — Dec. 10, 2023

www.aspendailynews.com

 

[Wasatchman]

Plot twist, those are all catfishing ads from Aspen Security to catch clients.

Lol, but see my post- to make the charges stick, helps if you can show a pattern or pile on more evidence from natural transactions.

It is possible they are catfishing ads but I highly doubt it. I would think the resorts would want to focus on the rogue instructors rather than the guests for a variety of good reasons

 

[Wasatchman]

I've been percolating on this from a variety of angles

• When we had ESA at Aspen we went through proper channels and had access to instructors from Aspen for the camp
• I am a believer in the resort having control over ski school and not allowing underground for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is, they own the infrastructure, and underground instructor is essentially a theft of use of that infrastructure to make $$
• I've skied at Aspen with a few instructor friends, just as friends, and have gotten some pointers while skiing together but did NOT have actual instruction. (my ski instructor friends know I need all the pointers I can get)
• If I ski at Aspen this winter with one of my instructor friends, is this something that I should be sensitive about, so I don't get a friend in trouble?
• The story about Don Lemos is interesting. I had no idea. (link below for those interested)

Remembering Don (Donald) Michael Lemos

March 18, 1938 — Dec. 10, 2023

www.aspendailynews.com

I highly doubt Aspen cares if you are skiing with instructor friend. I think what they are more sensitive to is rogue instructors who are performing paid instruction on the side and not through the official ski school.

 

[Shawn]

Customers don't know it's illegal

Hell, I'm a lawyer and I didn't know that it was an actual crime.

 

[Philpug]

• When we had ESA at Aspen we went through proper channels and had access to instructors from Aspen for the camp

I remember one of our instructors was pulled aside and questioned and was told the Aspen instructor had permission.

 

[coskigirl]

Most of the ski areas are on federal lands. Why cant the system be more like Europe and allow for independent instructors other than it takes away from a significant revenue stream?

One issue I see is the availability of insurance for independent instructors and the landowner/operator where they teach. Operators and landowners would want to be at least an additional insured and that would likely be quite expensive.

 

[Dave Marshak]

But there is no reason a ski area couldn't allow independents if they figured out a way to structure it that made business sense. It already happens to a small extent with the famous-teacher camps.

The whole rogue instructor thing is driven by high ski school prices. There is no business case to allow an independent school to charge lower prices.
OTOH PSIA runs the biggest ski school in the US for its own members at reasonable prices.

dm

 

[raytseng]

Most of the ski areas are on federal lands. Why cant the system be more like Europe and allow for independent instructors other than it takes away from a significant revenue stream?

There was a different thread on this over the summer about single provider vs multiple and the euro school model; dig in if you want to get into it.
There are a few other points brought up, such as consistency of the service and recourse for a bad lesson, were the ones I remember.
There are a few other issues, but yea theaim factor is capitalism
To quote Apple CEO Tim Cook

Asked by an attendee how he should go about sending better videos to his Android-inclined mother, Cook responded, “Buy your mom an iPhone.”