A pros thought on pedals....

[cantunamunch]

Have you ^done any training work on the 6-1 transition, at all?

When I talk about that zone, the only people that don't look at me like I have three heads are super-strong swimmers and speed skaters.

3-start 4 is the bubble-gum scrape move, the first thing clipless newbies get told about. 5 is the hamstring snap, pretty much anyone who's been on a hamstring curl machine knows how to do it.

But 6->1 OOOF.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I'd be curious to know how the use of those muscles changes in different situations. I feel #1 so much more on my MTB than I do on my gravel bike. Very big difference in seat tube angle between the two.

 

[scott43]

Some very influential people think upstroke contributes nothing to power...

Can you perfect your pedalling?

Want to go faster? Push harder on the pedals! But what about honing the way you apply that pressure? Is it worth trying to improve your technique? Hannah Reynolds investigates

www.cyclingweekly.com

 

[cantunamunch]

Some very influential people think upstroke contributes nothing to power...

Can you perfect your pedalling?

Want to go faster? Push harder on the pedals! But what about honing the way you apply that pressure? Is it worth trying to improve your technique? Hannah Reynolds investigates

www.cyclingweekly.com

He's specifically talking about activating 6->1. Witnesseth:

He offers some help on how best to arrive at this phase of the pedal stroke with the most power: “You need to start pushing your foot forward at the top of the pedal stroke from the 10 o’clock to 1 o’clock position. Then push to the floor."

 

[scott43]

Yeah I think about this a lot while dragging my fat ass up hills...could this be easier? Am I getting the weight off my back pedal so the front can do more work turning the wheel?? I try to imagine heel kicking a low door open..dunno if it helps. I don't have any good answers. Other than no matter what I try it never seems to make it much easier to get up that hill...

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I just realized that the other difference between my MTB and gravel is the ovals. I wonder if the oval is phased to make the ass work more.

 

[Ron]

doesnt it shorten the 'up phase" while lengthening the front phase?

 

[Ross Biff]

I was very quad dominant when pedaling and had to work a little bit to improve my pedal efficiency by engaging and recruiting the various muscles that contribute to the pedal stroke. This diagram helped me visualized the chain of muscles used in the pedal stroke:

(source: http://coachrobmuller.blogspot.com/2017/12/pedal-stroke-explained.html):

While some people claim that flats are as efficient as clips, to me it is very hard to have an efficient use of the muscles referenced in stages 3 to 6 of the diagram when using flats pedals. It feels that with flats you need to use (waste) some force to keep the shoes pressed in contact with the pedal at the bottom of the pedal stroke (3,4,5 in the diagram). This keeps the quads engaged and makes it difficult the transition to using other muscles that could effectively and efficiently contribute power to the stroke. And that to me is inefficient: wasting energy in muscles that are not contributing and preventing the engagement of those that can.

Great diagram! My hip flexors are not the flexiest and I definitely feel that in phase 6 if the pedal stroke! The issue of a clipped in rider not feeling confident they will release when they need to is not helped by bad cleat position and lack of knowledge that (most) pedals have an adjustable release/retention spring. Most pedals can be set to release on a sneeze if the set up is right. Don't just buy eBay shoes,pedals,whack 'em on and go for a spin folks!

 

[Ross Biff]

Yeah I think about this a lot while dragging my fat ass up hills...could this be easier? Am I getting the weight off my back pedal so the front can do more work turning the wheel?? I try to imagine heel kicking a low door open..dunno if it helps. I don't have any good answers. Other than no matter what I try it never seems to make it much easier to get up that hill...

I've found over the years that if I find myself suffering(more than usual) on a climb I try and totally ignore the down stroke and emphasize the up stroke. The natural instinct is to just push harder but PULLING harder gives a big hand to the pushing muscles.

 

[cantunamunch]

Great diagram! My hip flexors are not the flexiest and I definitely feel that in phase 6 if the pedal stroke!

One of the reasons I asked about the 6->1 activation phase is - Superman type falls on skis. The aggravated scenario of interest would be high-set heelpieces with relatively tight hip flexors. Almost tailor-made to rip or sprain that area, no?

doesnt it shorten the 'up phase" while lengthening the front phase?

AFAICT, it would depend on the type of oval he's got.

I feel like his question should be squarely within the expertise of tri coaches because they're all about muscular fatigue management on the bike and saving the athlete for the run without cramping from uneven activation.

 

[Ron]

I've found over the years that if I find myself suffering(more than usual) on a climb I try and totally ignore the down stroke and emphasize the up stroke. The natural instinct is to just push harder but PULLING harder gives a big hand to the pushing muscles.

I think changing up muscles on long steeper climbs (9% and up) helps a lot. sometimes I will try to let certain muscles rest more and it really helps but if you let that momentum lapse, you are working harder.

 

[cantunamunch]

Ok, question specifically directed to strong "UP" yankers - do you ever feel like you're doing an adductor squeeze and during which phase and how steep a climb? Tie-in question - how wide are your cranks?

 

[scott43]

Are we excluding out of the saddle? I have a 146 and a 156 q-factor cranks.

 

[cantunamunch]

Are we excluding out of the saddle? I have a 146 and a 156 q-factor cranks.

Not excluding anything.

I didn't specify because I don't want to guide the answers to my expectations.

From your post I could infer that you feel the adductor squeeze when out of the saddle - when the zone 6 area is fully extended, btw - but I won't.

 

[princo]

....about the 6->1 activation phase is.....

....do you ever feel like you're doing an adductor squeeze and during which phase and how steep a climb? Tie-in question - how wide are your cranks?

Sit on a chair with a height that will put your knee at about 90 degrees with your foot in full contact (flat) with the ground (ankle also at 90 deg). Tuck your foot back under your butt by engaging the hamstrings pulling back so that your heel starts lifting and the ball of the foot is only touching the ground. Start sliding your foot forward keeping the ball of the foot in contact with the ground with no weight on it (heel should remain lifted). As you start this movement, the hamstring will start to disengage and the abductor should pick up the weight. You should feel the abductor squeeze you are talking about. Keep moving the foot forward (heel lifted) and and as your knee is passing 90 degrees start putting pressure to the ball of the foot (this will start engaging the glutes and disengaging the abductor). Continue sliding the foot and extending the knee while you keep pressing on the ball of the foot (you will end up plantar flexed). You should feel the transition from hamstring-abductor-glutes.

 

[scott43]

Not excluding anything.

I didn't specify because I don't want to guide the answers to my expectations.

From your post I could infer that you feel the adductor squeeze when out of the saddle - when the zone 6 area is fully extended, btw - but I won't.

I do feel the adductors both seated and when standing, but more when standing just because I can get more leverage when standing and pulling. When seated I have a hip handicap that causes some imbalance in adductor strength and I can get adductor activation but it's greater on one side unfortunately. I do watch my knee tracking when spinning to see if I'm keeping good planar pedalling, no knees out stance and that fires my adductors more.

My glutes are terrible..I'm currently working on my glutes to see if I can sort some knee pain. They're not easy to activate in a big way it seems to me...

 

[Tony S]

Sorry to take us back in the general direction of the original question behind the thread, but I'm doing it ... or attempting to do it.

Consider a typical road ride. I think this is what most of us do: You find a loop that looks good. It may be short or long, easy or hard, convoluted or circular, depending on how much time, motivation, masochism, and friendly influence are in play. Regardless, you ride it from start to finish and then you're done. At the end you take satisfaction in how many miles you went, how many places you saw, how many different kinds of terrain you rode, etc. Along the way it's a long, hard, more or less aerobic slog. Your gear and clothing, including your shoes and pedals, reflect this.

For me - not speaking for anyone else here - 95% of the rides most of my MTB friends and I take here in New England are still essentially like this. Yeah, we might re-do an especially fun section, and there will likely be parts of a trail we retrace in the attempt to string a route together. But fundamentally we are traversing a lot of trail one time and keep on trucking until we get back to where we started. Our clothing, shoes, and pedals still mostly reflect this (with occasional grudging accommodation of intense fashion pressure) and resemble roadie gear.

Over the last 5 years or so I have noticed a big influx of mostly younger riders who don't ride like this at all. I suspect the behavior is coming to northern New England much later than to some other parts of the country, such as the PNW. It's facilitated in great part by the emergence of flow trails here and there, whose length is measured in meters, not kilometers, and which are built to ride in a single direction. These riders spend most of their time sessioning short sections of trail over and over. They may even be tweaking the trail itself on the same occasion. In this way they resemble kids hanging out in the terrain park more than they resemble XC skiers or even conventional alpine skiers. You see where this is going, right? The pedals that these folks choose are going to be optimized for "messing around on bikes," not for ticking off the miles. The weight - and, OMG, insane excess heat - that goes along with baggie shorts is worth it for the "look" but also because you spend more time on your butt in the dirt.

Edit: AND STAY OFF MY LAWN!

 

[Mike Thomas]

You forgot to say … "and stay offf my LAWN!" at the end.

 

[scott43]

You forgot top say … "and stay offf my LAWN!" at the end.

I was going to attach a photo of Gran Torino guy...but you beat me to it!!

From what I've seen directly I don't think it's THAT bad... But yeah, I've seen kids lying around a drop pointing at stuff and I just come blasting through and drop it..and I'm thinking, is there a point system for drops??? I have 1.5 hours to get in my loop and then I have to get home..I can't be lying around..but hey, they're kids..as long as they're happy and not playing Fornite..

 

[Tony S]

You forgot top say … "and stay offf my LAWN!" at the end.

Fixed it.