4Runner Replacement/New Ride

[James]

A room air v8 will never get 35mpg.

 

[nay]

Having done no research whatsoever I"m going to go out on a limb here and claim that an NA V8 probably doesn't weigh any more than the new turbo 4 hybrid in the new Grand Highlander.

Don't get me wrong, I love me a turbo, but I'll take mine with 6 cylinders and RWD architecture for towing every time.

Probably true. The Ascent at 4,800 lbs feels light, the V8’s are geared for fuel economy sitting at low RPM and the whole platform is just heavy.

The turbo inline 6 is the Mazda CX-9 is probably a riot, inline sixes (not V) are the best despite the penalty to interior space. But the idea that Toyota has managed to put a full second 0-60 on that platform with a hybrid 4 should raise everybody’s eyebrows.

I took this pic towing a loaded 5x10 U-Haul trailer over Monarch Pass at 11,000 feet with the Ascent. Speed limit is 45 mph, the Ascent is cruising here more easily than the 5.7L Sequoia unloaded.

I’m as surprised as anybody, but towing every now and again while getting 26 mpg highway in a car that tours this effortlessly is something laughably out of the scope of V8 platforms that still require a lot of driver effort in places like this.

I plan to keep my Sequoia forever and it will run forever, but it probably has a supercharger in its future.

 

[Tom K.]

The turbo inline 6 is the Mazda CX-9 is probably a riot, inline sixes (not V) are the best despite the penalty to interior space.

Having owned a bunch of BMWs over the past decades, I worshipped at the altar of the inline 6 for a long time, and it has indisputable advantages from an engineering standpoint (though BMW has always had trouble when they tried going beyond three liters).

Now I own two Ecoboost Ford V6s and.....there is no way I could pass the blindfold test between those and an inline 6 until maybe 5,000 rpm.

The three liter V6 in my Explorer ST is 400 x 400, but have you seen what Dodge is getting out of the three liter Hurricane inline six in the next Ram truck?!

Standard Version: 420 x 469
High Output: 540 x 521

Gotta be HUGE boost going on there!

I plan to keep my Sequoia forever and it will run forever, but it probably has a supercharger in its future.

Please, please, please post up a project thread on that as it unfolds!

 

[nay]

Having owned a bunch of BMWs over the past decades, I worshipped at the altar of the inline 6 for a long time, and it has indisputable advantages from an engineering standpoint (though BMW has always had trouble when they tried going beyond three liters).

Now I own two Ecoboost Ford V6s and.....there is no way I could pass the blindfold test between those and an inline 6 until maybe 5,000 rpm.

The three liter V6 in my Explorer ST is 400 x 400, but have you seen what Dodge is getting out of the three liter Hurricane inline six in the next Ram truck?!

Standard Version: 420 x 469
High Output: 540 x 521

Gotta be HUGE boost going on there!



Please, please, please post up a project thread on that as it unfolds!

The modern turbos have made so much advancement to where it doesn’t feel like turbo boost as RPM hits the boost level, they just feel like power. My bias against V6s is that they are gutless engines…unless of course it’s a modern turbo like the Ecoboost.

Nobody would know they had a 4 cyl under the hood without being told - it just feels like a big V8 with a flat torque curve except the car feels like and agile instead of heavy and ponderous and gets double the gas mileage. At least until you tow with it and then you are back to 10 mpg like everything else.

 

[scott43]

A room air v8 will never get 35mpg.

Unless it's in a Corvette with a stupidlongtopgear...

 

[dovski]

So as a former 4Runner owner, I can highly recommend the new Jeep Grand Cherokee PHEV. While it has a higher MSRP than the regular one, it qualifies for the $7500 tax rebate and Jeep has been offering a lot of other incentives, so you can pick one up for a pretty reasonable out of pocket cost. It is a great winter/ski car and it can also tow. Ping me if you want more details or firsthand feedback.

 

[Tom K.]

Fun times now a days means arrested.....

Not everywhere!

Unless it's in a Corvette with a stupidlongtopgear...

True. Highway mileage is a funny, interesting beast. Engine tech, gear ratios, drag, etc.

I find it interesting that my old 2013 XC60 inline turbo with 350 x 350 power would get just under 23 on a long Moab trip, while my new Explorer ST with V6 twin turbo and 400 x 400 power recently returned a smidge over 25 on the same (high speed) trio.

I'm assuming some combination of the above factors, even though the Explorer has considerably greater frontal area? The 10-speed tranny certainly gives a more relaxed highway rpm than the 6-speed unit in the old Volvo.

 

[nay]

Not everywhere!



True. Highway mileage is a funny, interesting beast. Engine tech, gear ratios, drag, etc.

I find it interesting that my old 2013 XC60 inline turbo with 350 x 350 power would get just under 23 on a long Moab trip, while my new Explorer ST with V6 twin turbo and 400 x 400 power recently returned a smidge over 25 on the same (high speed) trio.

I'm assuming some combination of the above factors, even though the Explorer has considerably greater frontal area? The 10-speed tranny certainly gives a more relaxed highway rpm than the 6-speed unit in the old Volvo.

There is so much in the transmissions. Back to the ‘old’ Toyotas with the 5.7L….the six speed transmission commonly used in that platform is a classic Toyota 4 speed with two overdrive gears, the second being something like .59:1. That’s why when you slap it over into ‘sport’ mode for manual gear selection it defaults into 4th gear, meaning that’s really just ”overdrive off”.

And is also why grunting that big V8 up over high Colorado passes is still plenty of manual driver effort along the the attendant abysmal fuel economy - I’m usually locking out overdrive entire and then it will hunt between 3rd and 4th gear. That doesn’t feel Iike modern power, in part because it isn’t modern transmission and in part because the engine is hauling 6,800 lbs up grade with a third of its power lost to altitude. Noting that Toyota is, to the car mags great delight, using a six speed with the new engine.

The Ascent CVT by comparison just stays in power band the entire time and driving up passes is no different than driving on flat roads even at 11,000 ft while the internet moans and groans about 4 cylinder engines. I know people hate CVTs, I think they are ideal for high elevation mountain driving - what is the point of an auto transmission shifting around so you can feel better about how it launches through gears off the line? Drag racing isn’t much of a use case for a family vehicle/ski rig, extremely low driver effort to turn ski commutes into a cozy tour is.

Anyway, in the real world most people aren’t getting the sticker rated economy because they won’t drive in their own eco mode. If you are taking all of this power and mashing the pedal all the time you’ll walk it back close enough to that engine that will last a million miles. At which point, keep the old iron. Gas is cheap, I ain’t selling mine.

 

[James]

On that 3.0l Hurricane engine, 22 and 26psi (HO) boost supposedly. The HO requires premium fuel, the SO will put out more power with premium like most turbos with modern knock sensing and computer management.

Modern turbos have nearly no lag partly due to variable valve timing and direct injection. There’s even electric motor assisted turbos like F1, and separate electric compressors these days. Maybe only Mercedes uses the electric assisted turbo? C43 amg, 2.0l with over 400hp.

 

[Tom K.]

On that 3.0l Hurricane engine, 22 and 26psi (HO) boost supposedly

Bang on. I read that subsequent to my post.

26 psi -- nearly two atmospheres -- of boost seems high.

Funny, as dated as it is, I'd have probably bought a Durango over my Explorer ST if that 22 psi boost inline six was available. As dated as the Durango is, I just love it every time I sample it.

 

[nay]

Modern turbos have nearly no lag partly due to variable valve timing and direct injection. There’s even electric motor assisted turbos like F1, and separate electric compressors these days. Maybe only Mercedes uses the electric assisted turbo? C43 amg, 2.0l with over 400hp.

Which begs the point that talking about “turbo” doesn’t make a lot of sense anymore. What’s the point of talking about forced induction when its standard design for making power across manufacturers, models, and engine types and not a bolt on accessory for modifying vehicle performance.

# of cylinders and engine displacement don’t tell the story in terms of how an engine produces power at this point, or maybe better said we might figure that a 400 lb/ft of torque available under 2,000 RPM is plenty for getting the kids to soccer or a family to a ski parking lot. That was supercar/heavy duty truck territory not very long ago.

 

[Chip]

Well I pulled the trigger on a new Subaru Ascent the other night.
As for my towing requirement- it meets the objective of 5000lbs. The thing is, I only tow my race car back and forth to the track maybe 4-5 times a year- the trailer/car combo weigh about 4500lbs. So this should be fine- plus the route is mostly flat- which in NC terms is maybe 100-200' elevation change and it's only about 55 minutes to the track from the house. So the towing aspect of the 4Runner replacement isn't a big requirement.
The other thing was my company gets the Subaru VIP program- so I'm basically paying dealer invoice pricing- which is nice.

Looking forward to it's arrival- which will be sometime in January.
Thanks again for all the input- trust me that I looked into all your suggestions and test drove a few cars over the last 2-3 weeks. In the end, my wife and I really liked the was the Ascent drove- the most car-like of everything we test drove.