Utah 2022-2023 Utah Ski Resorts/Conditions/Meetups

[fatbob]

I did the same thing.

Used to hate them but now I'm used to them I'm appreciative of how they mimimise misloads for people slow out of the gate. And the lanes stop people who are slow from sitting down early and totally screwing those who are waiting on the load line by taking their seat. I was on one chair when an idiot did that (not to me I stepped aside) and saw at least another couple of similar instances this season.

 

[Wasatchman]

Earlier this evening I discovered some information that paints a disappointing picture when it comes to traffic congestion in BCC and LCC this upcoming ski/snowboard season. According to the minutes of the 6/21/23 meeting of the Alta Town Council, Mayor Roger Bourke reported that UTA plans to run the same significantly reduced ski bus schedule as last season in LCC and there will again be no service up canyon of the Wildcat car park. Many were hoping ski bus service would be restored to the 2021-22 schedule but the Alta Mayor indicated it would not. As a result, I presume the reduced ski bus service to BCC in effect last season will continue this coming season. I recently had heard that the bus driver shortage impacting UTA last season had worsened over the past year so I'm not entirely surprised at this revelation. Fewer people using public transport equates to more vehicles in the canyon, longer lineups in the morning, more vehicles competing for a finite number of parking spots, more slide offs/collisions/delays, etc. Was hoping that last season's frequent punishing commutes ascending and descending the canyons would be a distant memory but that doesn't appear to be the case.

This is disappointing. And @Daniel is the union contract a big hindrance in that you can't simply pay drivers more specifically to drive the canyon? In other words, if you hired drivers and paid them more to drive the ski busses the union contract would force a general wage increase across the entire UTA system that would then become very unaffordable?

If a big toll ever does get implemented it would seem that could open the door for private bus systems to be economically feasible and cost effective relative to the big toll.

There are some high profile economists that suggest people are currently living on past Covid savings which may run out for many at the end of the year. If they are right then that could result in recession unfortunately but would change the current labor shortage dynamics.

 

[Daniel]

This is disappointing. And @Daniel is the union contract a big hindrance in that you can't simply pay drivers more specifically to drive the canyon? In other words, if you hired drivers and paid them more to drive the ski busses the union contract would force a general wage increase across the entire UTA system that would then become very unaffordable?

If a big toll ever does get implemented it would seem that could open the door for private bus systems to be economically feasible and cost effective relative to the big toll.

There are some high profile economists that suggest people are currently living on past Covid savings which may run out for many at the end of the year. If they are right then that could result in recession unfortunately but would change the current labor shortage dynamics.

I'm not well versed in regard to the terms and conditions of the current labor contract governing UTA and its employees; however, in the past I've gleaned quite a bit of information of past labor agreements from UTA bus drivers and supervisors. Staffing for ski bus driver positions used to be bid on by those interested in taking a several-month break from one's usual driving routine in the valleys. Seniority determined who were assigned to the most desirable routes and schedules and I've been led to believe that it was fairly competitive. During the past few seasons that have seen exponential growth in canyon traffic volume and the trend towards a far greater percentage of buses being filled to beyond-reasonable capacity, the option to drive the ski buses has transitioned to one that is considered to be generally undesirable. Many long-time drivers have quit bidding on seasonal ski bus opportunities and less experienced drivers have heard all the veteran's horror stories and are less likely to opt in. I can surmise that being repeatedly stuck in traffic for long periods of time, whether it be on Wasatch Blvd. or in the canyons makes using the bathroom very challenging and I've seen drivers literally running to use the toilet as soon as they arrive at Solitude. I usually wear earbuds while riding the bus but the drivers can't and they must grow very weary of unruly passengers complaining, swearing, getting in confrontations, and the like during long, time-consuming trips up or down canyon. I've also frequently witnessed frustrated skiers/snowboarders who have spent forever circling the Moonbeam car park trying to find an open spot to park with no success get into honking, yelling, screaming matches with bus drivers attempting to navigate the gridlock to deliver passengers to the bus shelter from the canyon road and then take up to 30 minutes to travel a dozen or so bus lengths back to the canyon road to continue on to Brighton. I don't think driving valley routes involves nearly as much frustration and inconvenience so, in addition to widespread driver shortages for large transit systems nationwide, UTA is experiencing a big drop in enthusiasm in bidding for ski bus positions.

I do suspect that, if UTA increased compensation for ski bus drivers, it would be obligated to increase compensation for all employees spread throughout the seven counties where it operates and across all the many forms of transport it provides. I'm basing that opinion on my own past membership in two different labor unions. I believe that somewhere in UDOT's Record of Decision for LCC's future transportation plan, the idea of incorporating private buses into the mix is mentioned as very likely to occur. Last season a private Park City-based bus company operated in both canyons during the last half of the season on a very limited basis. I believe users were generally pleased with having an alternative to UTA, though costing them twice as much and still subject to the possibility of traffic delays and bumper to bumper traffic getting up and down the canyon and into and out of the various resort car parks.

 

[blackke17]

114 days til Alta opens. but whos counting?

 

[Wasatchman]

Speaking of Alta. They are widening and regrading some terrain off of Supreme. I don't like it, but it is what it is. Intermediate skiers will enjoy the easier terrain.

 

[tromano]

Speaking of Alta. They are widening and regrading some terrain off of Supreme. I don't like it, but it is what it is. Intermediate skiers will enjoy the easier terrain.

View attachment 208573

The way this monsoon season is going off that looks scary.

Eta: is any of that dirt gonna be there in 2 months?

 

[ss20]

Speaking of Alta. They are widening and regrading some terrain off of Supreme. I don't like it, but it is what it is. Intermediate skiers will enjoy the easier terrain.

View attachment 208573

Yes and snowmaking too. I'm all for it, frankly. Thousands of intermediate skiers descending on LCC and... quite literally... 15 true blue, groomed runs between Alta and Snowbird.

 

[tromano]

Yes and snowmaking too. I'm all for it, frankly. Thousands of intermediate skiers descending on LCC and... quite literally... 15 true blue, groomed runs between Alta and Snowbird.

Many beter resorts in UT for intermediates than altabird. And is the one of the worst destinations in the region for them.

 

[blackke17]

What the hell?? take your IKON pass to BCC rookies

 

[tromano]

What the hell?? take your IKON pass to BCC rookies

Brighton, DV, snowbasin.

 

[4ster]

Brighton, DV, snowbasin.

Just stay the hell off JP & out of the cirques.

 

[tromano]

Worth a read for more context on cottonwoods transit.

https://www.powder.com/region-utah/reflections-on-transit-plans-for-the-cottonwood-canyons-

 

[Daniel]

This past Wednesday UTA confirmed that it will again run a reduced ski bus schedule this coming season. It anticipates being able to restore the schedule it operated two seasons ago in time for the 2024-25 season, according to the Chairman of its Board of Trustees. He claims UTA will deliver an improved product this year but some of what he describes as an upgrade has already been in effect for years. Running employee shuttles is nothing new: Solitude had a fleet of ten 15-passenger vans that they leased from UTA last season, Brighton and Alta each probably leased roughly half that many, and a commenter to the attached news story states that Snowbird leased 24 of them to transport employees. Last season Solitude and Brighton jointly leased at least 150 parking spots spread across two locations a couple miles from the mouth of BCC because, even early on many mornings during the season, the two carparks at the mouth of the canyon and the one at 6200 S. Wasatch Blvd. are completely full. Those leased parking spots were located along the route of the BCC ski bus route but primarily served as both the starting and ending points of the two resort's employee shuttles. Perhaps Alta and Snowbird did the same somewhere along 9400 South but employee shuttles have been running for years now.

UTA is working with Visit Salt Lake and Salt Lake County to hopefully again supplement UTA's schedule with a private shuttle company. Last season a Park City - based shuttle ran a very limited schedule for part of the season in both canyons. The Chairman claims UTA will be operating larger buses this coming season but last season either some or all of the ski buses were larger new models. Maxed out capacity buses went from transporting ~84 passengers per trip (as reported by drivers to their supervisor via radio) for many years to last year's increase to ~95 per trip. In my opinion, the Chairman is representing last year's upgrades to the public (and the Utah Legislature's Transportation Committee) as something new and improved for this coming season to soften the blow to the unaware of providing essentially the same product as one year prior.

I made an enormous amount of round trips in the canyon last (192 day) season. Only a relatively small percentage were on the ski bus. The greatest amount involved thumbing a ride up and down canyon (fast and easy) but also catching rides with friends and co-workers and getting paid to drive on work days when no employee shuttle was available to my co-worker and I.

UTA says it's in a 'much better position' to offer ski bus service this winter

Utah Transit Authority leaders say they're working on several changes that will help improve this winter's ski bus service after big cuts last year.

www.ksl.com

 

[Jim Kenney]

It doesn't sound like route 953 up Fort Union to LCC will be restored for this season! Too bad, that impacts me personally. Maybe they'll bring it back for 24-25, which could be timely because by then they may initiate tolling on individual vehicles??
Here's another recent news report on the bus/transportation situation, vaguely optimistic, but few details: https://www.ksl.com/article/5070725...position-to-offer-ski-bus-service-this-winter

 

[tromano]

It doesn't sound like route 953 up Fort Union to LCC will be restored for this season! Too bad, that impacts me personally. Maybe they'll bring it back for 24-25, which could be timely because by then they may initiate tolling on individual vehicles??
Here's another recent news report on the bus/transportation situation, vaguely optimistic, but few details: https://www.ksl.com/article/5070725...position-to-offer-ski-bus-service-this-winter

Linked from the pow mag article above:

More UDOT gondola details: How both Little and Big Cottonwood canyons would change

UDOT has not yet secured funding for the actual building of the gondola, but phase one of the project is expected by fall 2025.

www.sltrib.com

Phase 1 Changes to Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon​

The project’s next two phases will be implemented when funding becomes available, according to the project website. But phase one will bring 10-15 minute bus service to Little Cottonwood, additional ski resort bus stops with lockers and restrooms and a mobility hub at the gravel pit with 1500 parking stalls.

This phase will also implement tolling — in both Big and Little Cottonwood, according to UDOT’s presentation. The tolling will only be about 50 days per year from about 7-10 am, which Van Jura said are the peak hours for traffic concerns in the canyons.

The department has not yet performed revenue estimates for what profits may come in through the new tolling system.

“We recognized if we were going to toll Little Cottonwood, that may drive a lot of people to now go over to Big Cottonwood to recreate,” Van Jura said during the meeting. “So we anticipate that we would have to implement a similar solution for Big Cottonwood and Little Cottonwood at the same time.”

To keep up with the changes to its neighbor, Big Cottonwood Canyon would also see 10-15 minute bus service and additional ski resort bus stops. And this bus service may not be provided by the Utah Transit Authority, Van Jura said — UDOT may seek bus service from a private company, or implement hybrid services from both UTA and another provider.

UDOT started making changes as early as this summer to buy more buses, design the mobility hubs and make plans for tolling in the canyon. The latest tolling estimates could be around $20 to $30, with the hopes of reducing traffic and encouraging carpooling.

Kirk Nichols: The disturbing inadequacies of the Little Cottonwood environmental impact study

“When done well, the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) is a beautiful process requiring consideration of the human environment when planning federal actions. The Little Cottonwood Canyon environmental impact study, however, fails to meet the standards set forth by NEPA.”

www.sltrib.com

Also worth reading, criticism of the EIS and overall 3 phase plan. Item 4 indicates that easing congestion in LCC will only increase demand from locals who so far are opting out of the cottonwoods cluster and thus improved point to point transit alone will likely fail to solve the underlying regional transit issues.

 

[ss20]

Tolling 50 days per year and only for the morning rush is great. Should still curtail demand but still letting people get up there for free at non peak times is great!

Looking long term at the weather there's a chance of a super soaker in the 7-10 day range. One model outcome shows tropical moisture combining with a low pressure over SLC.... would be huuugeee rain amounts of multiple inches across the entire state over a multi-day event.

 

[JohnL]

Tolling will be real entertaining with rental car companies…

And if not designed properly, can cause backups at the tolls. And procedure confusion for newbies, but fortunately very few tourists and infrequent visitors drive up the canyons,

George Carlin: Think of how stupid the average person is. And realize half are dumber…

Tolling is a very effective way to ration road demand, but it will have some growing pains.And requires a fair amount of infrastructure, including billing and monitoring systems.

 

[JohnL]

And a 7-10 tolling window will cause heavier traffic before and after those times. And wonder what will happen on the days the canyon opens at 9:30 or later?

The key thing is to have a predictable and well-designed system in place, and people will eventually adapt to it. Could take a few years for that to happen.

 

[Wasatchman]

And a 7-10 tolling window will cause heavier traffic before and after those times. And wonder what will happen on the days the canyon opens at 9:30 or later?

The key thing is to have a predictable and well-designed system in place, and people will eventually adapt to it. Could take a few years for that to happen.

They haven't worked out the details and as far as I know while they are heavily leaning towards tolling it is by no means 100%. Brighton and Solitude are hoping the implementation of reservations will significantly reduce traffic enough in BCC to eliminate the need for tolling. That might be optimistic but it's in the ski resorts best interest to try and mitigate the situation enough such that tolls are deemed unnecessary.

If it works in BCC, one would hope Snowbird also implements a reservation system. There are reasons it may not work, but I'm cautiously optimistic required reservations by Solitude and Brighton could really help the traffic situation.

 

[JohnL]

They haven't worked out the details and as far as I know while they are heavily leaning towards tolling it is by no means 100%. Brighton and Solitude are hoping the implementation of reservations will significantly reduce traffic enough in BCC to eliminate the need for tolling. That might be optimistic but it's in the ski resorts best interest to try and mitigate the situation enough such that tolls are deemed unnecessary.

If it works in BCC, one would hope Snowbird also implements a reservation system. There are reasons it may not work, but I'm cautiously optimistic required reservations by Solitude and Brighton could really help the traffic situation.

A reservation system without better transit alternatives will just piss off a lot of paying customers.

Personally, i think a parking reservation system plus better transit >> toll lanes. You need UTA to remove the stick, though…

Better transit will involve more drivers and more buses. And, dedicated bus / carpool lanes before the mouth of the canyons. Lots of gridlock before you even hit the canyons. No way you can add dedicated transit lanes in the canyons.

Traffic really sucks in the canyons. But, it sucks far worse in a lot of other places. I think we emotionally feel the impact more driving up to/down from a ski area, since we are skiing for fun and relaxation.