The Never-Ending Stöckli Discussion

[ARL67]

^^^ I was about to bring up golf, of which I am an avid participant and have a full golf work bench & related tools & measurement devices at home.

Am I to fit the equipment or is the equipment to fit me ??? ( golf, ski, archery, tennis, bowling, darts, fishing rods, etc )

 

[Scruffy]

M

You can have all the experience you want, but the ski is designed to be pressured from a certain point (on the line).

I am giving you facts.

Sorry @Started at 53 , but you pressure the ski under the forward joint of your first metatarsal and your big toe, your sesamoid, not under the arch of your foot where the center mark of your boot is, and where you match that boot mark to the mount point of the ski. If you don't know where you pressure the ski, your facts are screwed up.

Also, you use the term parabolic in a few posts upstream. If you know math, you know that parabolic is a parabola, and a parabola is the set of all points in the plane equidistant from a given line. So, to have a true parabolic ski you would need the tip and tail to be the exact same width, and the waist a smaller size. The original extreme shaped ski, the Elan SCX ( circa 1993), that coined the term Parabolic Ski, wasn't even a true parabolic shape; it had dimensions of: 110mm-63mm-105mm. Close enough so Elan coined the term for a ski. Interesting enough, Faction makes a true parabolic ski, the Candide CT 1.0 and 2.0 have their tails the exact same width as their tips. But, Stockli, does not make, and as far as I know, has never made a true parabolic ski.

Also, Stockli can say all they want about their "perfect" mount point. That doesn't negate the years of design knowledge other ski manufactures have collectively under their belt and they will tell you the mount point is a suggestion. In fact Atomic made a system ski and binding a number of years back that had a sliding binding on a rail with three settings: forward had an indication labeled "ice", center was labeled "normal". and rearward was labeled "powder". The three settings were about a centimeter apart. It worked fine. The only reason it didn't "take off" and was dropped, everyone set it to one of the three and forgot about it; no one wanted to change it mid day, let alone midway down the mountain.

 

[James]

The center of a boot is the same no matter the length of the boot, the midpoint of an object will NEVER vary.

Yes but the distance to ball of foot from midpoint varies. And your arch etc. Are midpoints in different boots the same? Presumably it's the midpoint of the sole. There's less room behind the heel than in front of the toe in a boot. Where does that put midsole for the foot and how much does it vary from each manufacturer?


Tuning a carving, let alone a race ski at 1/1 is just silly. I mean it's great that they finally stopped that. Race skis at .7? What low point slalom skier wants that? Even in gs.
There's no racer of any quality over 14yrs old that cares what the "factory" tune is. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for people to get. Tune them as you want.

I also don't get why a worldcup athlete would want the same ski that gets sold to Joe Schmoe. Wcup skiing to recreational skiing is like high achool football to the NFL. The difference in forces encountered, tiiming, speed, is just astonishing.

One thing that's great about Stockli slalom skis is they have fatter edges. It might make them slower, but they last longer.

 

[LindseyB]

Stockli made true parabolic ski a few years ago. The Rotor 84. 110-84-110.

Stockli, although very OCD Swiss engineers, are pretty laid back cheerful guys as skiers. The mounting point is the suggestion we make for most people based on the design. If somebody moves from that point and skis better that's cool too.

I'm not in the business of selling everyone on a 16 degree boot cuff and telling them to ski with, "ideal technique", whatever that means. It's a lot more effective to try and accommodate them to the right ski or right binding position

I'm in the business of putting people on the world's finest skis so they can increase their fun and passion for the sport.

Dogmatism held skiing back for years.

Dogmatism held Stockli back for years in regards to rocker and other innovations. While Rudi is one of the best race ski designers to ever grace the earth, his focus on race performance occupied too much brain time to focus heavily toward the more versatile Stocklis that Mathieu is creating. Mathieu has been working side by side with Rudi for over a decade and both are brilliant in their own way. Stockli's unrivaled quality can be attributed to Rudi, and Stockli's unparalleled versatility can be attributed to Mathieu. If it weren't for the proprietary lamination system that Rudi created, Mathieu wouldn't be able to create such a wide envelope of personality in each ski. Both tradition and open thinking are core contributors to Stockli success.

In general, the ski industry abandoned ski quality when innovative shapes changed the game. What's really neat about Stockli right now is how the quality processes are the enablers of innovative material adjustments. We don't use gimmicks. We find techniques to get different results out of the materials and only after they are proven on machines to function accordingly do we implement them. Everything is constantly examined to see if it can improve, day in and day out.

The company is an open discussion at all times. Criticism for a product iteration is valued as passion for the company. Healthy conversations never stop. Everyone has such a passion for the product that they feel a large sense of stewardship for their individual contribution.

We are the leader in the game because we know that the perfect design will never be achieved and the continual journey of improving is where the fulfillment is found. We are constantly iterating to find slight improvements that will put smiles on our customers faces.

The head of international sales and one of the design team members comes with me through Utah, Idaho, and Montana every year for a week. In two weeks, it will be his forth tour. We ask for all the feedback, both praising and critical.

I don't understand why there should be any contention about a mounting point. It's the line we feel is suited for the majority. While we aren't terribly thrilled that someone would tell everybody they need to move forward, we support their testimony that it improved their personal fun time on the skis and might be worthwhile for others to try.

There is plenty of room for varying opinions in skiing.

 

[tch]

 

[tch]

 

[Seldomski]

@LindseyB thank you for sharing the info on the laser AX tune. I really enjoy this ski and it feels like I am cheating when on it. Easy to smear with a soft flex but somehow able to carve hard pack?! The 1.3/2 tune makes sense now for how it feels.

I am a little bummed though that the tune is unusual and so key for this ski - though makes total sense. I travel to ski and have had very bad wax/tune experiences in North America. So I guess I will just keep renting this when I can since I have no way to maintain this ski (wife has drawn the line at me tuning my own skis).

If you could somehow 'package' the tune into an easy to use kit, that would be awesome . Or maybe have a list of affiliate shops (in north America) that stockli finds to be competent to consistently deliver a good tune?

Does any shop renting stockli have this sort of confidence in tuning the rentals? You mentioned a bit on this before, but could you elaborate?

 

[Tony S]

Ahh! Dope slap to self. I just made the connection! Mr. Golf Analogy! Doh!

 

[Tony S]

Of course it would be a lot easier to out source 90% of the ski building to the Head factory, throw 2 sheets of rubber in them and call them a "premium" ski

We recognize the quality of Stöckli boards. You don't need to resort to dissing other excellent skis to get that point across.

 

[neonorchid]

@LindseyB1.3/2 tune
-
I am a little bummed though that the tune is unusual and so key for this ski - though makes total sense. I travel to ski and have had very bad wax/tune experiences in North America. So I guess I will just keep renting this when I can since I have no way to maintain this ski (wife has drawn the line at me tuning my own skis).

If you could somehow 'package' the tune into an easy to use kit, that would be awesome . Or maybe have a list of affiliate shops (in north America) that stockli finds to be competent to consistently deliver a good tune?
-

See @Doug Briggs when you're in Colorado or find another shop with a Wintersteiger Scout machine.

 

[ScottB]

@LindseyB, I am pretty shocked that Stockli sends some of their skis out with a 1.3 deg base bevel. For East Coast ice that seems pretty high. If talking West Coast snow (mostly softer compared to "boiler plate") I can see it. I have experimented with base and side bevels a lot, and I find a 0.5/3.0 to work great for any ski. I have also found that a 2.0 base bevel is almost unskiable on East Coast Ice. I did read the 1.3 is for ease of pivoting, which does make sense to me. I haven't figured out how fast the base bevel increases with use, but if a 1.3 turns into a 2.0 in a couple of years of skiing, that would not be good.

 

[ScottB]

I have a comment about "mounting on the factory line". It has always been my understanding (and I feel proven through my experiences) that skis want the ball of foot mounted in a particular position to ski well for most people. There are always exceptions and other factors in play. To put the ball of foot in the same spot for different size boots, you have to move the center of boot marked point forward or back on the ski. If you mount all boot sizes on "the factory line" at their boot sole centers (marked point on the boot) you put bigger feet's ball of foot further forward, which is definitely in the wrong direction. I am assuming bigger feet mean heavier skier.

How sensitive to mount point a particular ski is, or is not, is another discussion altogether.

 

[flbufl]

Probably don’t need to worry about it too much. It seems Stockli started to do this kind of tuning in 2018. It’s nice to have. But do their skis before 2018 ski much worse than the current ones?

But finding a reliable tuning shop is still very important.

@LindseyB thank you for sharing the info on the laser AX tune. I really enjoy this ski and it feels like I am cheating when on it. Easy to smear with a soft flex but somehow able to carve hard pack?! The 1.3/2 tune makes sense now for how it feels.

I am a little bummed though that the tune is unusual and so key for this ski - though makes total sense. I travel to ski and have had very bad wax/tune experiences in North America. So I guess I will just keep renting this when I can since I have no way to maintain this ski (wife has drawn the line at me tuning my own skis).

If you could somehow 'package' the tune into an easy to use kit, that would be awesome . Or maybe have a list of affiliate shops (in north America) that stockli finds to be competent to consistently deliver a good tune?

Does any shop renting stockli have this sort of confidence in tuning the rentals? You mentioned a bit on this before, but could you elaborate?

 

[LindseyB]

@LindseyB thank you for sharing the info on the laser AX tune. I really enjoy this ski and it feels like I am cheating when on it. Easy to smear with a soft flex but somehow able to carve hard pack?! The 1.3/2 tune makes sense now for how it feels.

I am a little bummed though that the tune is unusual and so key for this ski - though makes total sense. I travel to ski and have had very bad wax/tune experiences in North America. So I guess I will just keep renting this when I can since I have no way to maintain this ski (wife has drawn the line at me tuning my own skis).

If you could somehow 'package' the tune into an easy to use kit, that would be awesome . Or maybe have a list of affiliate shops (in north America) that stockli finds to be competent to consistently deliver a good tune?

Does any shop renting stockli have this sort of confidence in tuning the rentals? You mentioned a bit on this before, but could you elaborate?

A list of shops would be really convenient. The hard part is that shops might have a good reputation, but it is still dependent on the individual tech to provide a good tune. Hard to endorse something that is subject to one or a few people and their individual skillset. If somebody carries Stockli skis, more often than not they have the tooling capable to do a proper tune, but because our tuning is slightly unorthodox a lot of staff are unaware or forget the specifics.

My main purpose in giving you guys the factory specs is so that you can request the tune if you prefer to maintain the factory feel.

We try to partner in our limited distribution model with dealers that can appropriately tune a ski. Some staff are excellent, some may be lacking. We can't dictate to our partners how they manage their shop. All we can do is try to be the best partner we can and give them the correct info.

 

[LindseyB]

@LindseyB, I am pretty shocked that Stockli sends some of their skis out with a 1.3 deg base bevel. For East Coast ice that seems pretty high. If talking West Coast snow (mostly softer compared to "boiler plate") I can see it. I have experimented with base and side bevels a lot, and I find a 0.5/3.0 to work great for any ski. I have also found that a 2.0 base bevel is almost unskiable on East Coast Ice. I did read the 1.3 is for ease of pivoting, which does make sense to me. I haven't figured out how fast the base bevel increases with use, but if a 1.3 turns into a 2.0 in a couple of years of skiing, that would not be good.

Seemed high to me too, but the first one I skied with the 1.3 base was the current SR95. It can grip and rip Stowe ice right when they are out of the plastic and as a midfat ski. There are many reasons a Stockli can get away with this. The two most obvious is the torsional rigidity and the dampening, but I wont be posting any of the small details that add up to a making this kind of edge hold workable in our skis on a public forum. Happy to otherwise if we meet on the chairlift.

Anybody have the current 95 on this thread?

 

[BS Slarver]

^^^ why yes ? I currently have the tartan top sheet SR 95 along with the carbon insect SR 107. Seem to gravitate to the 107 on most days a SR is needed. Here in Big Sky that can be quite often.

 

[Michael Kane]

I have been on both the AX and SR95 this year. Not so much the SR95 this year so far as winter has only arrived here in the midwest a week or so ago. We have had a lot of thaw and refreeze nasty hard stuff here. I have found both the AX and SR95 to have sensational edge hold. I think these two compliment each other well, the AX is more knife like (slices and dice) while the SR95 is just a hammer that crushes bad snow. I am just enamored with the dampness and silky smooth feel of these skis.

 

[dave g]

Seemed high to me too, but the first one I skied with the 1.3 base was the current SR95. It can grip and rip Stowe ice right when they are out of the plastic and as a midfat ski. There are many reasons a Stockli can get away with this. The two most obvious is the torsional rigidity and the dampening, but I wont be posting any of the small details that add up to a making this kind of edge hold workable in our skis on a public forum. Happy to otherwise if we meet on the chairlift.

Anybody have the current 95 on this thread?

Purchased the Laser SX FIS in 185 and the Stormrider 95 in 184 from Tom at The Norse House in Stratton, VT last month and have been in heaven since. Simply amazing skis on all fronts. Dave

 

[givethepigeye]

Anybody have the current 95 on this thread?

Ding ding - and my backup Kastle's are now for sale. Wish I had bought the 115 too.

 

[LindseyB]

I have been on both the AX and SR95 this year. Not so much the SR95 this year so far as winter has only arrived here in the midwest a week or so ago. We have had a lot of thaw and refreeze nasty hard stuff here. I have found both the AX and SR95 to have sensational edge hold. I think these two compliment each other well, the AX is more knife like (slices and dice) while the SR95 is just a hammer that crushes bad snow. I am just enamored with the dampness and silky smooth feel of these skis.

You are correct. They are a perfect cross over. If you are in the zone on one other you'll instantly be in the zone when you switch to the other.