ZipFit Gara vs. Intuition?

[Freddo Bumps]

Does anyone have opinions about and/or experience with the Zipfit leather option? Same with the Sidewinder.

 

[Brad J]

Does anyone have opinions about and/or experience with the Zipfit leather option? Same with the Sidewinder.

I have Grand prix Leather in my Tecnica Mach 1 LV 130 and are perfect , my son has the Newer Freestyle leather sidewinder in a Dale boot and is very happy, From what i can tell the sidewinder transfers mere pressure to edge of ski. the leather adds some lower leg, foot grip to the boot.

 

[Freddo Bumps]

Very helpful, Brad. Thank you.

 

[Noodler]

Does anyone have opinions about and/or experience with the Zipfit leather option? Same with the Sidewinder.

I had the hydrophobic leather option in my very first set of Zips. The leather provides an almost unbreakable grip on your leg and foot, once your perspiration starts collecting in the liner. The leather option takes the liner into the highest level of grip on your leg and foot. Personally, I've found the neoprene lining a bit easier to get along with, but I wouldn't hesitate to go with the leather option again if the opportunity arises.

 

[neonorchid]

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I had the worst shin-bang ever in the Pro-Wrap Intuitions (my bony shin formed a pocket but any movement adjacent to the pocket hurt like hell) and there are no mess-ups with mouldings. If Intuitions are moulded perfectly they are good. If not, and you re-mould them, they are roomier (need a thicker sock) and harder. -
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Intuition question: I was under the impression Intuition liners are different then most in that they expand cooked and moulded. Asking because I've been carpet testing Backcountry AT Boots, one of which comes with an Intuition liner, the Scarpa Maestrale ll. In that boot I've a two'ish finger shell fit which is a little big, 2nd (strap) buckle pulls my heel into the pocket and keeps it back there only at the expense of instep/cuneiform comfort. A notch looser for comfort and the heel still stays in the back but I'm able to lift my heels upward. Shop guy sent me home with MasterFit Ezfit reg volume (med-high arch) insole which has helped tighten up around my arch but once again causing more pressure on the instep/cuneiform.
We have yet to mould the Intuition liner. I'm taking my time with the purchase and considering ordering the boot in the next size down, which if long enough not to jam my toes would still likely would require reshaping the Grilamid toe, if advisable (for obvious reasons something I'll only have done by the shop the boot is purchased from).
In the current size (2mm longer BSL then my Alpine boots ), my toes have wiggle room and don't hit the front with the boot flexed backwards when lunging forward in walk mode. Based on my experiences with cross country skiing I'd say isn't a bad thing. I don't need black toenails, hammer toe and bunions developing. Of all the more descent-oriented AT boots I've tried to date, the Maestrale has the greatest degree of and easiest to go thru walk mode range of motion.
Reading what you wrote about getting it correct and remoulding problems has me thinking, if I can't find a better boot option, I should ski this boot more then a few times as is without having it's Intuition liner moulded, play around with insoles, before bringing them back to the shop for moulding the liner. Would that be the recommended course of action?
I don't want to have the liner moulded with the MasterFit insole only to find it's arch being too high is creating a more difficult problem and now the liner has been compressed where with a different lower arch insole it should expand for a snug fit.
Wondering if I should mould the liner with the stock insole to see if the liner would expand to fill in volume in the heel ankle area to accomplish what the medium-high arch footbed was doing while at the same time being easier in my instep/cuneiform? I probably should also try the Low Volume Masterfit insole before proceeding.
This would be counter to what you are saying, but I was under the impression Intuition liners expand when heat moulding to fill in voids, as well as compress where more room is needed, is that not true? Or is it true, but just a one shot hit or miss deal WRT expanding to take up volume?
FWIW, I never needed to mould my Salomon X-Max Alpine boot's stock liner and or shell, or the prior Nordica's which ended up needing a butterfly wrap to take up volume.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Intuition question: I was under the impression Intuition liners are different then most in that they expand cooked and moulded. Asking because I've been carpet testing Backcountry AT Boots, one of which comes with an Intuition liner, the Scarpa Maestrale ll. In that boot I've a two'ish finger shell fit which is a little big, 2nd (strap) buckle pulls my heel into the pocket and keeps it back there only at the expense of instep/cuneiform comfort. A notch looser for comfort and the heel still stays in the back but I'm able to lift my heels upward. Shop guy sent me home with MasterFit Ezfit reg volume (med-high arch) insole which has helped tighten up around my arch but once again causing more pressure on the instep/cuneiform.
We have yet to mould the Intuition liner. I'm taking my time with the purchase and considering ordering the boot in the next size down, which if long enough not to jam my toes would still likely would require reshaping the Grilamid toe, if advisable (for obvious reasons something I'll only have done by the shop the boot is purchased from).
In the current size (2mm longer BSL then my Alpine boots ), my toes have wiggle room and don't hit the front with the boot flexed backwards when lunging forward in walk mode. Based on my experiences with cross country skiing I'd say isn't a bad thing. I don't need black toenails, hammer toe and bunions developing. Of all the more descent-oriented AT boots I've tried to date, the Maestrale has the greatest degree of and easiest to go thru walk mode range of motion.
Reading what you wrote about getting it correct and remoulding problems has me thinking, if I can't find a better boot option, I should ski this boot more then a few times as is without having it's Intuition liner moulded, play around with insoles, before bringing them back to the shop for moulding the liner. Would that be the recommended course of action?
I don't want to have the liner moulded with the MasterFit insole only to find it's arch being too high is creating a more difficult problem and now the liner has been compressed where with a different lower arch insole it should expand for a snug fit.
Wondering if I should mould the liner with the stock insole to see if the liner would expand to fill in volume in the heel ankle area to accomplish what the medium-high arch footbed was doing while at the same time being easier in my instep/cuneiform? I probably should also try the Low Volume Masterfit insole before proceeding.
This would be counter to what you are saying, but I was under the impression Intuition liners expand when heat moulding to fill in voids, as well as compress where more room is needed, is that not true? Or is it true, but just a one shot hit or miss deal WRT expanding to take up volume?
FWIW, I never needed to mould my Salomon X-Max Alpine boot's stock liner and or shell, or the prior Nordica's which ended up needing a butterfly wrap to take up volume.

I think one of the things that hasn't been adequately discussed in this thread is that there are multiple different styles and types of intuition liners. These have different types of foam which may change the behavior significantly. I have the ProTongue, which have the stiffer foam, have molded them three times and have had the toe blown out. They most definitely do not regain volume. The wrap type might be different but I wouldn't bet on it. I have heard that the characteristics of the liners that come with boots is significantly different than the after market liners. So just be careful about generalizing based on the wrong liner characteristics.

 

[Noodler]

And I'll add that it's really almost impossible to assess an Intuition liner in its un-molded form. An Intuition liner depends HIGHLY on a great shell fit to really get the most out of it. Although some Intuition models have the rear powerwrap, that alone cannot substitute for a poor shell fit in the heel and ankle pockets of the shell. Obviously shell fit for touring use has an additional concern since the boot is used in walk-mode, but you still need to have the critical "control" areas of the shell fit well (those include the heel, ankle, and instep).

 

[cantunamunch]

This would be counter to what you are saying, but I was under the impression Intuition liners expand when heat moulding to fill in voids, as well as compress where more room is needed, is that not true? Or is it true, but just a one shot hit or miss deal WRT expanding to take up volume?

That IS true, but there is a huge downside: where the Intuition has expanded a lot during the cook, there is where it compresses quickest after the cook.

In a loose two-finger fit, expect the hold to loosen in less than two weeks skiing - completely irrespective of the footbed used.

 

[neonorchid]

That IS true, but there is a huge downside: where the Intuition has expanded a lot during the cook, there is where it compresses quickest after the cook.

In a loose two-finger fit, expect the hold to loosen in less than two weeks skiing - completely irrespective of the footbed used.

Suprisingly, I was more concerned of that in the 25.5 Tecnica Zero G which at 2mm smaller BSL then my 25.5 X-Max Alpine boot had a great 1 - 1.5 finger, standard pencil width ankle, shell fit. 99mm last vs the 25.5 Scarpa's 101mm last / BSL 5mm larger then OG) . Also OG being a four buckle overlap (plus the "pre-punched" CAS liner/shell), was comfortable across my instep. Only my toes which with cuff locked were touching the front of the boot and pulling back with deep knee flexing, but would smash into the front of the boot when in walk mode, big toe buckled with every step! Was not so bad when I put the Maestrale's Intuition linner in the OG but still felt loose in the heel pocket. I was able to lift my heel up with both the OG stock liner and with the un-cooked Intuiton liners and unlike the Maestrale's second strap/buckle holding the foot in place front to back. Out of the box OG had front to back movement even when flexing with cuff locked in place. Zero G stock liner grabs at the back 1/4 of the heel pocket and in back at the Achilles, much different then a Mach 1 liner. I'm guessing to allow for tour mode "walkability" comfort and am left questioning my expectations for a AT boot fit, if they're out of proportion with the current state of AT boot design. I'm not interested in heavy Alpine with walk mode beef boots with limited ROM, I still have the X-Max for 95% of the liftserve days when venturing off resort boundries are not an attractive option.

 

[Don'tfit]

ZipFit Liners take somewhat of a leap of faith to purchase. Once you do you'll most likely never again be able to ski for any amount of time without them. Sure you can put in a day or two here and there on stock liners but if you ski a fair amount for performance, no way. ZipFits remain The best kept secret in skiing.

 

[Noodler]

I just spent 3 hours at the boot shop working with the fitter to test fit multiple boots. I brought along one of my pairs of ZipFits to see how they might work with some of the shells I was considering. Time and again, I was amazed at just how much a ZipFit liner can completely change your perception of a shell. The stock liners varied in quality (including race leather lace-ups), but none of them approach what a ZipFit liner does for a shell (and your foot!). I noticed that quite a few of the shells had weird, uneven flex patterns; some with a kind of "hinging" effect above my ankle against my shin. Pull out the stock liner, drop my foot into the shell with the ZipFit, and the "magic" happens.

I already knew ZipFit liners were fantastic, but what I came away with after this experience is just how important a ZipFit liner is to me in my boots. I would go so far as saying that it's practically the most important piece of my ski gear now. I just don't see myself ever skiing a stock liner ever again (or an Intuition).

I also got the chance to "fondle" the latest iteration of the ZipFit GARA liner at the shop. I'm always impressed with the improvements Sven makes year over year. The latest iteration has a soft, rubbery, honeycomb like "suction cup" material that covers the cuff (instead of the leather used previously for the special edition models). This stuff looks like a nice upgrade for creating the perfect mating between the liner cuff and the shell cuff. He's also added a dedicated slot for boot heater cables to come out of the heel. And the leather lined option is just sick. I will definitely be saving my pennies to go back to the leather-lined version someday.

 

[Don'tfit]

Zipfits are a hard sell. No matter how many times I recommend them to friends, when I put one of mine in their hands they give it only a cursory glance and hand them back. Recommend a certain ski though and they are likely to show up with them shortly. They are by far one of, if not the most, important pieces of performance ski equipment. Do not think you are not good enough ability wise for them, they will help your game.

 

[Noodler]

High level skiing is hard. We control our skis via our boots. It's critical to have a close shell fit coupled with a responsive liner. Without those "weapons" in your arsenal, you're starting out with half the deck stacked against you. IMHO

 

[cantunamunch]

I'm guessing to allow for tour mode "walkability" comfort and am left questioning my expectations for a AT boot fit, if they're out of proportion with the current state of AT boot design. I'm not interested in heavy Alpine with walk mode beef boots with limited ROM,.

This is where the advantages of a lace-up liner really become evident.

 

[Freddo Bumps]

Does anybody know if the Sidewinder is made with the Stealth honeycomb as standard?

 

[Noodler]

Does anybody know if the Sidewinder is made with the Stealth honeycomb as standard?

I believe the honeycomb is now standard on the newest iteration of the liners. So I would assume that if you get the Sidewinder option it will be covered in the honeycomb material. The liners I checked out at my local shop all had the honeycomb and the one pair of liners with the Sidewinder option had this covering too. Either way, just be clear when ordering that you want the Sidewinder with the honeycomb.

That all said, I have never skied the Sidewinder option, but while checking it out in the shop I noted that the "break in" looks to be more challenging if there is a hard plastic sheet down the inside edge side of the liner. I have to question how much value there is in the Sidewinder option, but I'll hold out final judgement until there is some feedback from real world experience.

 

[Jerez]

Just realized that I have had my ZipFits for 12 years and they still are terrific. Remolded more times than I can recall. Love those things.

 

[Brad J]

My son has the sidewinder and is very happy with them , I think the thought is easier the transmit pressure to edge of ski

 

[cantunamunch]

Just realized that I have had my ZipFits for 12 years and they still are terrific. Remolded more times than I can recall. Love those things.

Both the cuff reinforcement trim and the ankle area have been changed 2x since, the sole cover only once, I think.

 

[Noodler]

Both the cuff reinforcement trim and the ankle area have been changed 2x since, the sole cover only once, I think.

Yeah, 12 years is a long time though over the lifespan of changes Sven has made to the ZipFit liners. I have a pair from 2006 (no longer skied) and they are like "light years" away from my current GARA model. If they're still working fine at 12 years then great, but there are worthwhile improvements if a new purchase is considered.