Youth basketball coach teaches skiing (his wife)

[James]

First section skier use wedge, but use ski edge. In my country recommended keeping the ski flat.

I didn’t see any wedge.
“recommended keeping the ski flat”
What ski and when? Don’t get what you’re referring to.
Wedge by definition and geometry is on opposing edges.

The relevant part of that vid for this is “moving into the turn”. (Not moving out over the outside ski.)

 

[gabrik]

@James I am sorry my mistake (bad video link)

 

[crgildart]

Props for getting her past the initial fear and anxiety of getting out there and navigating the beginner area, making a few turns. Maybe now that you're there why not revisit the professional instruction side of things in a different way.

What I'm suggesting would be a semi private with a really good instructor. If you're there with her in the lesson and have a pro, perhaps someone who is good with student anxiety as well, good results are more likely

 

[gabrik]

Props for getting her past the initial fear and anxiety of getting out there and navigating the beginner area, making a few turns. Maybe now that you're there why not revisit the professional instruction side of things in a different way.

What I'm suggesting would be a semi private with a really good instructor. If you're there with her in the lesson and have a pro, perhaps someone who is good with student anxiety as well, good results are more likely

Off course...but she says NO

 

[Mendieta]

So, you are referring to this pattern, right? I believe the intention here is to find ways to move from wedged turns to parallel turns. If the skier can flatten the inside ski, they are closer to a parallel turn. But I'll let instructors address that. Later in the video they transition from hockey stops to short parallel turns. Ha, i want to see a beginner do that. Not me.

Me? The aha moment for parallel skiing was a patient J turn first in one direction, to a full stop. Then in the other direction. And finally link those J turns. That was simple because it was was static, and it starts with parallel edges, which was mind blowing, being used to edging both inside edges in a wedge.

It also worked well with both my kids who only took a couple early lessons and lost interest on instruction.

 

[James]

@James I am sorry my mistake (bad video link)


View attachment 218371

Ah ok.
Here’s the problem with the Japanese demo- they’re on way too steep terrain. Just because that’s the demo area they have. When terrain is that steep, wedge becomes very wide. The blue/yellow skiers picture above is also too wide. The Japanese demo team can get away with it because they’re very skilled and practiced. It’s not easy to make it look that good on steep terrain. I’m sure they don’t like doing it on that terrain because it hurts.

As JF Beaulieu talks about in that pendulum video posted in another thread, when you make the wedge that wide, the only option is pushing on the outside ski. Instead of just balancing on it, as the inside ski flattens from moving slightly inside and or tipping that inside foot and knee to little toe.

A wide wedge is difficult and uncomfortable for adults to do for very long. It is however usually preferable to cling to for safety. Once you get hooked on a very wide wedge, it gets hard to give it up.

Notice however, that the Japanese move inside towards the center of the turn, balancing on the outside. If you hid their lower legs and skis from view, it would look very similar to their parallel turns.

Blue/yellow not so much. It appears he moves out over the outside ski. Like your wife was taught. To me, this is a negative movement and something of a dead end. We do not initiate parallel turns by moving the body left to go right.
In the US, it would not pass for a wedge turn in an exam.

However, I suspect this is still common in parts over there. There used to be a poster on epic ski from Finland who posted all about teaching this. He’s now all over the internet with carving videos and some really nice videos of Wcup racers free skiing outside the course. I don’t think he’s still advocating the leaning out at low levels but don’t know. Triggerboy62 is the youtube username, used to be tdk6 on epicski.

Use gentle terrain, a narrow gliding wedge. A wide wedge is known as a braking wedge. Avoid as much as possible. Control speed by the line you follow, head uphill to slow. Cone to a stop by J turning uphill when possible.

Turns should be positive gliding events, not defensive braking events. The best way to ensure that is very gentle terrain.

Not some version of this:
1941 US Army skiing instruction-

Snowplow turn. The movement to turn right is move left.

But, here’s the equipment-

Very long skis, very low leather boots, heel not held down tightly.

 

[Mendieta]

In case it helps, here are a couple references for J-Turns

A great explanation by @razie , a Forum Member:

J turns

A video of J-turns with telemark skis (I couldn't find one with regular alpine skis)

 

[skiki]

Off course...but she says NO

How far are you from your usual ski area, or one with good beginner terrain? It sounds like trusting the instructor is a good part of her fear after being injured. I'm wondering if there is a way to "interview" or get to know the instructor a bit before getting on snow with them. It might give her a better feeling of control over the entire situation. Get recommendations for an instructor who is patient, explain the situation to them, and find a time to sit down over a cup of coffee, or buy them a meal, and let your wife talk and get to know them a bit She might find it easier to trust her instructor if she has had a chance to meet them off snow first, talk a little about ski goals, learning styles, what she is having trouble with, etc. It would also give the instructor some time to come up with a game plan before the lessons start. You can also ask your wife -if- she were to take lessons, what would her ideal ski instructor be like? That is another way to give her more control of the process, and help to set her up for success. I don't know if there's anyone on the forum who could give instructor recommendations for Poland. The only woman I know of on the Ski Diva forum who is from Poland took lessons at an indoor hill there.

And for the instructors here, are there maybe any basic dry land training kind of things his wife could do to give herself a boost before getting on snow? Well, maybe training is not the right word for what I'm thinking of. But rather little things to do playing around with body position, stance, basic movements, etc. without the snow part of the equation. Put on her boots and stand in front of the mirror with checkpoints to look for (stacked vs. crouched, for example)? Skis on a rug and little hops to find the balance spot? Things that just take a handful of minutes and give her a chance to focus on what she is doing with her body without having to think at the same time about where her skis are headed. That might help with the mental part, helping her to feel more prepared going in.

 

[gabrik]

Ah ok.
Here’s the problem with the Japanese demo- they’re on way too steep terrain. Just because that’s the demo area they have. When terrain is that steep, wedge becomes very wide. The blue/yellow skiers picture above is also too wide. The Japanese demo team can get away with it because they’re very skilled and practiced. It’s not easy to make it look that good on steep terrain. I’m sure they don’t like doing it on that terrain because it hurts.

As JF Beaulieu talks about in that pendulum video posted in another thread, when you make the wedge that wide, the only option is pushing on the outside ski. Instead of just balancing on it, as the inside ski flattens from moving slightly inside and or tipping that inside foot and knee to little toe.

A wide wedge is difficult and uncomfortable for adults to do for very long. It is however usually preferable to cling to for safety. Once you get hooked on a very wide wedge, it gets hard to give it up.

Notice however, that the Japanese move inside towards the center of the turn, balancing on the outside. If you hid their lower legs and skis from view, it would look very similar to their parallel turns.

Now i see and understand the difference. I think that maybe this is better if we looking finally about edge/carving

Blue/yellow not so much. It appears he moves out over the outside ski. Like your wife was taught. To me, this is a negative movement and something of a dead end. We do not initiate parallel turns by moving the body left to go right.
In the US, it would not pass for a wedge turn in an exam.

This is how they still teach in my country.

However, I suspect this is still common in parts over there. There used to be a poster on epic ski from Finland who posted all about teaching this. He’s now all over the internet with carving videos and some really nice videos of Wcup racers free skiing outside the course. I don’t think he’s still advocating the leaning out at low levels but don’t know. Triggerboy62 is the youtube username, used to be tdk6 on epicski.

I know Triggerboy youtube channel and drill airplane. I really notice the difference!!!! Thank you very much! (Japan team wedge and triggerboy62 wedge in drill airplane). Japan demo team skier and student Triggerboy, they focus on the extending the leg and edging outside ski (but Japan skier more). Instructors in my country moves out over the outside ski. Maybe now there will be a change, becouse after InterSki Levi our ski association creates a new curriculum.

Use gentle terrain, a narrow gliding wedge. A wide wedge is known as a braking wedge. Avoid as much as possible. Control speed by the line you follow, head uphill to slow. Cone to a stop by J turning uphill when possible.

Turns should be positive gliding events, not defensive braking events. The best way to ensure that is very gentle terrain.

I know what you want to say.

Not some version of this:
1941 US Army skiing instruction-


Snowplow turn. The movement to turn right is move left.

But, here’s the equipment-


Very long skis, very low leather boots, heel not held down tightly.

 

[Chris V.]

I take this segment as proof that there's more than one way to skin a cat. At the start of the lessons, Caroline wasn't achieving rotation of the skis. It was more a diagonal slide to diagonal slide pattern. And her fore-aft balance was terrible. By the end, those aspects of her skiing had improved considerably, despite not being the focus of the lessons. Not perfect, but moving in a good direction.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Off course...but she says NO

Try to find a lady instructor about the same age and leave them two alone, just go to a completely different part of the resort where your wife can be sure you aren’t watching. Skiing happens first in one’s mind.

 

[gabrik]

Ach, OK.
Oto problem japońskiej wersji demonstracyjnej – jest ona na zbyt stromym terenie. Tylko dlatego, że mają taki obszar demonstracyjny. Kiedy teren jest tak stromy, klin staje się bardzo szeroki. Powyższe niebiesko-żółte zdjęcie narciarzy jest również zbyt szerokie. Japońskiemu zespołowi demonstracyjnemu ujdzie to na sucho, ponieważ jest bardzo wykwalifikowany i wyćwiczony. Nie jest łatwo sprawić, by wyglądał tak dobrze na stromym terenie. Jestem pewien, że nie lubią tego robić w tym terenie, bo to boli.

Jak mówi JF Beaulieu w filmie o wahadle zamieszczonym w innym wątku, gdy klin jest tak szeroki, jedyną opcją jest pchanie narty zewnętrznej. Zamiast po prostu na niej balansować, gdy wewnętrzna narta spłaszcza się w wyniku lekkiego ruchu do wewnątrz i/lub przechylania wewnętrznej stopy i kolana w kierunku małego palca.

Szeroki klin jest dla dorosłych trudny i niewygodny do noszenia przez bardzo długi czas. Jednak ze względów bezpieczeństwa zazwyczaj lepiej jest się trzymać. Gdy już wkręcimy się w bardzo szeroki klin, ciężko będzie z niego zrezygnować.

Zauważ jednak, że Japończycy poruszają się do środka w kierunku środka zakrętu, balansując na zewnątrz. Jeśli ukryjesz ich dolne części nóg i narty, będzie to wyglądać bardzo podobnie do ich równoległych zakrętów.

Niebieski/żółty nie za bardzo. Wygląda na to, że wychodzi na zewnętrzną nartę. Tak jak nauczono twoją żonę. Dla mnie jest to ruch negatywny i coś w rodzaju ślepego zaułka. Nie inicjujemy równoległych zwrotów przesuwając ciało w lewo, aby skręcić w prawo.
W USA nie byłoby to równoznaczne z zwrotem akcji na egzaminie.

Podejrzewam jednak, że jest to nadal powszechne w niektórych częściach kraju. Kiedyś wisiał plakat o epickich nartach z Finlandii, na którym zamieszczano wszystkie informacje na temat nauczania tego. Teraz w całym Internecie można znaleźć filmy z carvingiem i kilka naprawdę fajnych filmów przedstawiających zawodników Wcup jeżdżących na nartach poza trasą. Nie sądzę, żeby nadal opowiadał się za odchylaniem się na niskich poziomach, ale nie wiem. Triggerboy62 to nazwa użytkownika YouTube, dawniej tdk6 na epicski.

Używaj łagodnego terenu, wąskiego klina ślizgowego . Szeroki klin nazywany jest klinem hamującym. Unikaj jak najwięcej. Kontroluj prędkość według linii, którą podążasz, kieruj się pod górę, aby zwolnić. Jeśli to możliwe, zatrzymaj się, skręcając pod górę, J.

Zakręty powinny być pozytywnymi zdarzeniami ślizgowymi, a nie defensywnymi hamowaniami. Najlepszym sposobem na zapewnienie tego jest bardzo łagodny teren.

A nie jakaś wersja tego:
Instrukcja jazdy na nartach armii amerykańskiej w 1941 r . -

View attachment 218393
Zakręt pługu śnieżnego. Ruch skręcający w prawo to ruch w lewo.

Ale oto sprzęt -
View attachment 218395
View attachment 218394
Bardzo długie narty, bardzo niskie skórzane buty, pięta nie trzyma się mocno.

@James Spanish idea, 2 version wedge. What do you think?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@James Spanish idea, 2 version wedge. What do you think?

Interesting description of two "snowplow" movement patterns. I've not encountered this analysis before. It's odd that type 2 is described as a way to seek speed in a "snowplow" turn.

 

[James]

@James Spanish idea, 2 version wedge. What do you think?

Type 1- again, a fail for any psia exam. This hasn’t been taught officially in several decades. But yes, it’s taught in other countries.

Everything said above applies. It is best for people to learn speed control through the line they ski, rather than braking all the time. Line means where you go, and uphill slows you down. Yes, braking is necessary at times, but fundamentally, one should learn gliding. Glide around the turn and have that go where you want - slower go uphill, faster head downhill.

The sooner one learns this the better and the more enjoyable the sport is even at low levels.

Another problem of leaning out like they show, besides everything mentioned above, is they’re teaching bending at the spine. When you lean out sideways, your bending laterally at the spine. This is clear in the stick diagram.

Type 1 is not getting people to just think “balance” on the outside foot. You do not have to press or move over it. When we walk, do we lean out over the stance foot every step? No, unless they’re drunk.

I do like the body diagrams from different planes.

Notice type 2 is a completely different movement pattern. They move the body to the inside of the turn. Like regular skiing.
The sitting back body position is I guess to handle the speed. That’s not good.

There’s no reason to teach someone two completely different wedge turns. Throw out type 1. Use most of type 2, except slower speed. It’s absurd to teach a “high speed” wedge turn to beginners. It is done for advanced skiers for training, but that’s irrelevant. Any speed at all should be done parallel.

In short, they teach two completely different things. They’re teaching things that have to be untaught. That’s dumb, and it’s just confusing people. There’s no good reason for this. What if you never get the type 2 lesson??

Anything can work and I’m sure they’re successful. I just see little point in it. It’s teaching bad habits that then are untaught for some situations, but even that has bad habits in it. (The sitting back)

But someone else can talk about this stuff. It’s fundamental. Hey, maybe everyone is fine with it.

 

[Chris V.]

You can do a lot with wedge turns. Not just for beginners. At higher levels, I think it's useful to contrast different kinds of wedge turns, and try them out. Not just the kind that's "good."

 

[gabrik]

Can you give me video with wedge PSIA?

Edit
Ok, i have

 

[James]

Can you give me video with wedge PSIA?

Edit
Ok, i have

Again they’re doing that on steep terrain you wouldn’t take a beginner on. Very exaggerated up motion too.
Gliding wedge turns are slow. Notice how little movement there is, because it’s on flat terrain. Steeper they’ll be more and you really have to use line to control speed.