You turn the skis - vs - The skis turn you

[Chris V.]

Well, our trainers at Snowmass spent several training days on this topic with, as far as I know, no consensus on the outcome.

LOL, that sounds familiar, sadly.

 

[markojp]

Potayto potahto. Sometimes you turn the skis, sometimes you let them turn you. Those who knows knows, those who don't knows don't knows. So here's the real question. Do all those angels on the heads of pins wear helmets or not?

 

[François Pugh]

Do you stay on your feet, or do you keep your feet under you?

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Do you stay on your feet, or do you keep your feet under you?

Yes and Yes. Tight line skiing on the side of the trail in the loose snow with one turn followed by a hardpack turn required to back to the softer snow. Float, carve, float, carve where my feet need to tucked under me to carve but not to float were I go back neutral and ride the ski.

 

[dbostedo]

Do all those Angels on the heads of pins wear helmets or not?

Depends on whether they're wearing red, or grey.

Oh wait... that's a different discussion...

 

[no edge]

From Josh:
"yeah no, until we have an electric car with a speed controller on each wheel that would be impossible."


Acura has a new model with two electric motors in the front and one in the back. The car is generally powered by 377 hp gas engine. The electric motor adds power and also controls each wheel - slowing and accelerating as needed.

Better read about it since what I just said may be flawed.

 

[karlo]

Jim, you better turn the skis there!

That, or tip them, so the skis turn.

 

[Josh Matta]

From Josh:
"yeah no, until we have an electric car with a speed controller on each wheel that would be impossible."


Acura has a new model with two electric motors in the front and one in the back. The car is generally powered by 377 hp gas engine. The electric motor adds power and also controls each wheel - slowing and accelerating as needed.

Better read about it since what I just said may be flawed.

It would at least give independent control of the front and rear.....

but the reality is this is all done by computer, not by a person. Even an electric powered quadcopter we dont directly control what each motor does, we move the sticcks, the flight controller takes our input and measures whats happening with a gyro, and then the quadcopters maneuvers based on those inputs and readings.

when we have car that can take our input and indepentantly control each wheel to make it happen via giant brushless motors, its going to be insane.

 

[karlo]

theory of how we learn.

https://nyti.ms/2QOjKp3

A little bit ago, I threw this in. It's an article about a theory on how the brain works. The salient point is, per the theory,

“The cortex knows the location of everything,” ... "cortical columns did not just capture sensations. They captured the location of those sensations. They captured the world in three dimensions rather than two. Everything was seen in relation to what was around it."

So, that got me thinking. The question in the OP was posed in the context of instruction and learning. In that context, it seems to me that we need to focus on "the skis turn you", rather than the other way around, because it's a critical part of skiing, the ski's ability to turn, that puts what we know on its head.

A little sidebar. Ever alight an escalator or moving walkway that is not working, and do so making every effort to do it seemlessly, as if were just another set of stairs or just a continuation of the floor, respectively, without feeling a disequilibrium? For me, it's been impossible. My brain (cortex) fully expects that I am alighting a moving object; my entire body acts as I will. Skiing is like that, but the other way. We expect our feet and skis to be planted to the ground; but, no, they move.

So, quite difficult to overcome the disconnect between what we know and what happens. Then, there is the added expectation that "we turn", not the skis. I suggest that on-hill discussion of physics, parallel, perpendicular, though interesting, may not be much help at all. What is more relevant is what instructors can do to associate inputs with outputs, while at the same time orient the student to a new way of looking at the hill. As to the latter, I focus on training the student to see the ever changing fall line. But to what end? I use the fall line as the reference by which to identify the "floor" (I use dance floor), not the slope before us. As to the former, I don't know how to most effectively help a student to associate inputs with the unexpected outputs at a very basic level, the brain or cortex level. One might say, get out there and practice. But, seems to me there must be a better way, one that is designed for instructing and learning. I "feel" that conveying "the skis turn you" has to be a critical element.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Wait for it! (4:14)

 

[dbostedo]

^^^
Are you sure you didn't mean to post that in the falling thread? https://www.pugski.com/threads/falling-lets-see-some-of-your-best-and-worst-falls.12050/

And welcome to PugSki!

 

[Tip Nippley]

^^^
Are you sure you didn't mean to post that in the falling thread? https://www.pugski.com/threads/falling-lets-see-some-of-your-best-and-worst-falls.12050/

And welcome to PugSki!

Haha, thanks. No, this was simply to add fuel to the fire.

So many things to think about! I mean, while tomahawking are you turning the skis or are they turning you? And, after a double ejection who is turning the ski as it carves down the fall-line?

 

[mdf]

Haha, thanks. No, this was simply to add fuel to the fire.

So many things to think about! I mean, while tomahawking are you turning the skis or are they turning you? And, after a double ejection who is turning the ski as it carves down the fall-line?

Ah, now I get it. Check out the perfect turns around 4:16. The skis are thinking, "this is great without that big skier bogging us down!"

 

[JESinstr]

A little bit ago, I threw this in. It's an article about a theory on how the brain works. The salient point is, per the theory,

“The cortex knows the location of everything,” ... "cortical columns did not just capture sensations. They captured the location of those sensations. They captured the world in three dimensions rather than two. Everything was seen in relation to what was around it."

So, that got me thinking. The question in the OP was posed in the context of instruction and learning. In that context, it seems to me that we need to focus on "the skis turn you", rather than the other way around, because it's a critical part of skiing, the ski's ability to turn, that puts what we know on its head.

A little sidebar. Ever alight an escalator or moving walkway that is not working, and do so making every effort to do it seemlessly, as if were just another set of stairs or just a continuation of the floor, respectively, without feeling a disequilibrium? For me, it's been impossible. My brain (cortex) fully expects that I am alighting a moving object; my entire body acts as I will. Skiing is like that, but the other way. We expect our feet and skis to be planted to the ground; but, no, they move.

So, quite difficult to overcome the disconnect between what we know and what happens. Then, there is the added expectation that "we turn", not the skis. I suggest that on-hill discussion of physics, parallel, perpendicular, though interesting, may not be much help at all. What is more relevant is what instructors can do to associate inputs with outputs, while at the same time orient the student to a new way of looking at the hill. As to the latter, I focus on training the student to see the ever changing fall line. But to what end? I use the fall line as the reference by which to identify the "floor" (I use dance floor), not the slope before us. As to the former, I don't know how to most effectively help a student to associate inputs with the unexpected outputs at a very basic level, the brain or cortex level. One might say, get out there and practice. But, seems to me there must be a better way, one that is designed for instructing and learning. I "feel" that conveying "the skis turn you" has to be a critical element.

Good post Karlo!

I follow Shawn Clement (on youtube) who is a golf pro out of Toronto and he is all about how the cortex knows the location of everything. Not only in terms of where we are but where we want to go. In Golf, the trick is to take your focus off of hitting the ball in front of you and focus instead on where you want the ball to go, ie the target. Easy to say, not so easy to do.

I like the point you made in you "sidebar". New skiers come to us with a dynamic balance movement pattern based on locomotion and that locomotion is fundamentally based on frictional interaction with a surface involving multiple, sequential parts of the foot anatomy. IMO this is item #1 that an instructor needs to address. Our whole concept on how we balance while "on the move" needs to be "turned on its head" to enable proper management of the ski.

Although not overtly addressed, many of the threads this past summer evolved around this topic. Skiing from the feet up, Spread and lift the toes, understanding the importance of the hinge complex (ankles, knees, hips) all relate to establishing an effective pattern of platform based dynamic balance from which we can manage the skis as they take us from point to point.

From an instruction perspective, This topic has two audiences. For the new to skiing audience we can develop a straight forward progression but for the skier with miles under their belt, breaking bad habits is highly problematic... unless of course, the student is open to taking the time to change. .

 

[Tip Nippley]

Ah, now I get it. Check out the perfect turns around 4:16. The skis are thinking, "this is great without that big skier bogging us down!"

Exactly! I guess I should have made that more clear. The crash is just an appetizer for the best part around 4:14.

 

[mdf]

Exactly! I guess I should have made that more clear. The crash is just an appetizer for the best part around 4:14.

I think that ski is a bit back-seat. It needs to take a lesson!

 

[Tip Nippley]

I see someone trained your eye to look at spray coming off the ski, and based off of that one premise you may be correct. However, I see other things as well.

 

[DoryBreaux]

This is one of my least favorite instructor saying. Skis don't ever turn you, not in this sense of the term anyways. The skis may turn, and you may very well follow, but I feel like its more common that the skis turn, and you get really familiar with the snow.

 

[karlo]

From an instruction perspective, This topic has two audiences. For the new to skiing audience we can develop a straight forward progression but for the skier with miles under their belt, breaking bad habits is highly problematic.

Four, not two, for those new to teaching, and for those with miles under the belt, breaking bad habits is highly problematic.

Perhaps the question is unresolvable because in truly good skiing, we and our skis are one. Do our feet turn us, or do we turn our feet? I forget. Maybe it’s ankles. Or is it hips? Or the inner ear?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@JESinstr said upthread:
....This topic has two audiences. For the new to skiing audience we can develop a straight forward progression but for the skier with miles under their belt, breaking bad habits is highly problematic... unless of course, the student is open to taking the time to change.

@karlo said:
Four, not two, for those new to teaching, and for those with miles under the belt, breaking bad habits is highly problematic.

These posts explain why there have been so many different responses to the thread topic. As an instructor, I can teach a student to coax the skis to "perform." I'm talking about shaped skis with shortish turn radii here. When this happens for the first time for a skier, it is a real eye-opener. They make comments with exclamation points, and clearly embrace the sensation they've just felt. All of a sudden the skis do something that contributes to the turn ... this comes totally unexpectedly to these skiers. So the difference between turning the skis and having them turn you is very real to me. It's something I seek to teach.

I suspect there are long-term skiers who first experienced this ski behavior years ago when they first got on shaped skis, but at this point the differences between the thread title alternatives may have disappeared in their minds.

And there may be long-term skiers who have never experienced the shift reading here as well.