You turn the skis - vs - The skis turn you

[Mike King]

Meant to add:

We have to remember that a 4.5 m radius is still a 9 m diameter turn (about 30’) and can only be generated under the assumption that you are able to create that 70 degree edge angle throughout the WHOLE turn - from edge change to edge change.

Even with a recreational skier tipping to 45 degrees we are talking an 18 m diameter.

My 13 m radius ski makes a 26 m diameter (about 78 foot) arced turn which I can tighten up a bit at speed.

But I'm not teaching ski racers. So my question would be what do we do if we need a 180 degree 10 foot diameter turn? It will not be a carved turn. It will be a steered turn with a high degree of rotation added to the skill blend.

That was my main point with Karlo. A true short radius turn is not a carved turn - we were clarifying each other's definitions.

My understanding is that the "radius" is actually the diameter. The marketing folk didn't like the word "diameter," so used radius instead. Damn marketing types...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Thanks for clarifying that little bit of number weirdness, SkiSailor and Mike King. I always wondered about those turn radii.

 

[Skisailor]

Lol!! Well thanks for unconfusing me. I clearly shouldn't be messing with numbers at this time of night. (Travelling in the east at the moment).

Regardless - I think my original point to Karlo about short radius turns still stands. And I happily admit I am not teaching race carving in my life as a ski instructor so far.

 

[karlo]

You turn the skis.

You initiate the turn. Even in the purest of carved turns the skier causes the ski to function. A competent skier will skid, slarve, swivel, pivot, carve, or a mix there of. The ski is a tool that functions upon your input that will be mitigated by the environment and conditions you are in.

The ski can only act with input.

Say we have one of those old watches and wind it. Do we turn the hands of the watch, or does the spring that we loaded up? Me, I think the spring turns the hands.

My understanding is that the "radius" is actually the diameter. The marketing folk didn't like the word "diameter," so used radius instead. Damn marketing types...

And, I like the brand that tells me I'm still skiing well on 25 m skis

 

[Bad Bob]

Say we have one of those old watches and wind it. Do we turn the hands of the watch, or does the spring that we loaded up? Me, I think the spring turns the hands.

We caused the action; kind of like using anticipation before initiating a turn, winding the spring.

 

[François Pugh]

The point of the saying is to consider how hard you are working to turn your skis, and how much are those skis turning you as a result of your work.
13 m isn't that long, and 9 m is even shorter. At 30 mph it takes less than a second to traverse 13 m, and about three seconds to complete that 13 m radius (and I mean radius) turn. Just say'n. There's plenty of room on the hill to carve some fine arc-2-arc turns with shaped skis.

Even if you aren't carving arc-2-arc, the same mechanisms that make skis carve turns are at work making you turn, if you just tip your skis and engage the edges/bases, without trying to turn those skis.

If you are on hard snow on shaped skis or even if you have a straight ski in soft snow, so long as the ski bends under load, tipping it will initiate a turn (change in the direction you are going), without you needing to turn (pivot about an axis perpendicular to the snow) the skis.

Contrary to what some may have had indoctrinated into them through having come up through a system, and then teaching in a system that values client safety, teaching folk to keep their speed down, the true joy of making some turns comes not from keeping one's speed down; it comes from controlling one's path while increasing one's speed, fulfilling the natural desire and instinct for power and control. It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@François Pugh, you said that so well.

However, and in addition to what you said, one can get the skis to turn you at slow speeds and with very short radii (without you rotating the skis with muscular action across the snow surface). This type of turn can produce most excellent sensations without the speed, and they can be linked within a narrow corridor. This can be a good way to make turns on narrow or crowded groomers. I'm fishing for who here does that.

 

[Skisailor]

@François Pugh, you said that so well.

However, and in addition to what you said, one can get the skis to turn you at slow speeds and with very short radii (without you rotating the skis with muscular action across the snow surface). This type of turn can produce most excellent sensations without the speed, and they can be linked within a narrow corridor. This can be a good way to make turns on narrow or crowded groomers. I'm fishing for how many people here do that, and/or if they are aware they are doing it.

Absolutely. These are the dynamic short radius, very edgy turns I talked about up thread. They are really fun and have a much higher edging to rotation ratio than a flatter ski turn. And because so much edge is used, the sensation is more that the ski turns your legs rather than that your legs turn the ski. I love this kind of turn.

My point was that these are still steered turns, not true carved turns - especially if you are going to stipulate slower speeds.

 

[Skisailor]

Contrary to what some may have had indoctrinated into them through having come up through a system, and then teaching in a system that values client safety, teaching folk to keep their speed down, the true joy of making some turns comes not from keeping one's speed down; it comes from controlling one's path while increasing one's speed, fulfilling the natural desire and instinct for power and control. It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how.

Wow. Indoctrination.

Fortunately, we do not get to define for others what constitutes their true joy in skiing.

Giving students all of the tools they need to control their own destiny allows them to ski the terrain they want at ANY speed they want as dictated by their own whim and fancy of the moment.

 

[dj61]

If the skis turn you, you are in deep trouble. However certain properties of the ski (turn radius for one thing) do determine what you can and should do to make it down the hill.

 

[Uke]

dj,

As someone who allows their skis to turn them all the time I got to ask. What exactly is this deep trouble I'm in and when and how should I expect it to manifest it's self?

uke

 

[François Pugh]

@François Pugh, you said that so well.

However, and in addition to what you said, one can get the skis to turn you at slow speeds and with very short radii (without you rotating the skis with muscular action across the snow surface). This type of turn can produce most excellent sensations without the speed, and they can be linked within a narrow corridor. This can be a good way to make turns on narrow or crowded groomers. I'm fishing for who here does that.

I do that. Those are my basic mogul turn, which I now make in moguls even when I'm heading just down the fall line. It is worth noting that when I first decided to learn "proper" mogul technique (as opposed to my finely honed clean carving style turns) , I thought I had to use muscular action to rotate my skis for mogul skiing. I soon learned, thankfully, that that wasn't needed. Which doesn't mean to say that you can't add it in when you want to, once you know what you're doing.

 

[karlo]

the true joy of making some turns comes not from keeping one's speed down; it comes from controlling one's path while increasing one's speed, fulfilling the natural desire and instinct for power and control

Not that I want to perpetuate thread drift, but I will. For me, the true joy in skiing is the weightlessness. Someone once said I look like a dolphin when I ski.

@François Pugh, you said that so well.

However, and in addition to what you said, one can get the skis to turn you at slow speeds and with very short radii (without you rotating the skis with muscular action across the snow surface). This type of turn can produce most excellent sensations without the speed, and they can be linked within a narrow corridor. This can be a good way to make turns on narrow or crowded groomers. I'm fishing for who here does that.

Me, me. I do that.

My point was that these are still steered turns, not true carved turns - especially if you are going to stipulate slower speed

Hmm, I thought I was carving those turns, like carving a turkey. Never thought of it that way. Carving a ski, the ski does the work. Carving a turkey, one's arm does the work. So, those turns, one is steering to carve. I'll think turkey next time, steer-to-carve.

 

[MarkP]

Point your skis where you want to go.

If that doesn't work, go where your skis are pointed.

If you can't love what you do with your skis, love what your skis do for you...

 

[CalG]

Does this phrase resonate with you?
Do you ever think about these two things as you ski?
Does your teaching ever reflect anything embedded in this phrase?
If you take lessons or take part in training sessions, do your coaches ever refer to this phrase?
If yes, what does it mean to you and how to you deal with it?

When the ski is turning me. I'm OUT OF CONTROL@

Have that happen in the trees and you are dead pizza!

Stay on top. tell 'em what to do

A task Master? A Task?

 

[markojp]

Wow. Indoctrination.

Fortunately, we do not get to define for others what constitutes their true joy in skiing.

.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Safety isn't 'indoctrination', it simply helps us protect ourselves from our fellow skiers, and visa versa. It's also imbedded in the skier code. Skiing however fast we feel like when and where we feel like it has potential large legal and Darwinian consequences. Hey, but damn the man/psia/csia/the shriners/elks/eagles etc.... tryin to take away my hard earned rights and freedoms.

 

[François Pugh]

Turns are for "Going there"; we have hockey stops for "not going there".

 

[Eleeski]

Watch the racers. A component of the turn is throwing the skis into a different angle. Another part is to ride the arc that the skis will naturally carve. Each gate involves both skills.

Real life turns (in trees, bumps, gates, chutes and around crowds) require some quick ski direction change as well as a solid stable edge. You can't just slide your skis nor can you do "railroad tracks" and have good control. Dynamic edge to edge changes involve forced angle changes and carved angle evolution.

It's not an either/or, it's both that a skier needs to be able to execute in any given turn. Where and when the transition from forcing the skis over to riding the edge occurs determines how smooth and fast a skier will be.

Eric

 

[Uke]

Thanks LF for starting this thread.

I never would have equated having the ski turn me as being out of control. For me, and those who I ski with, having the ski propel me where I want to go is the epitome of control. Wish I could talk with someone who is of 'the out of control' school of thought to understand just why they hold that opinion.

The ski on my foot only does what it is told to do, I have to be careful of just what I am telling it to do.

uke

 

[geepers]

Interesting post from Functional Body.